Interesting post greybeard.  I kind of agree with you that the "trophy" mentality might not be in the best interest of the sport we love or the animals.  Where I live here in northern Michigan there is a real lack of "trophy" bucks.  If I were to judge the deer up here by the same standards that the T.V  guys use, I would be sorely disappointed with most any buck I would be able to harvest up here.  We try to "manage" the deer on our property (20 acres of cedar swamp) by thinning out a few of the cedars once the snow starts to get pretty deep.  It is the natural food that they eat in our area in winter we just kill two birds with one stone... shooting lane maintenance, and make it a little easier for them to get to their prefered winter food.  The deer density in our area is really low due to harsh winters and tons of Coyotes.  This next year we are going to try planting some clover and wild rice around our beaver pond.  Hopefully it will help the deer fatten up for winter even better.

Not all deer management is designed to improve the trophy quality. By following QDMA guidlines, I have gotten my buck to doe ratio almost to a 2 does to every buck. Prior to making an attempt at managing my herd, the does outnumbered the bucks by close to 8-10 to 1. I now have an opportunity to kill more bucks, but still shoot the occasional doe, in order to maintain the ratio. Another aspect of deer management, is providing supplemental feeding and this is accomplished through planting food plots, Here where the swamps are so prevelant, the natural browse doesn't always provide enough feed for the entire herd. The food plots and the corn piles are more than just bait, since we maintain them all year 'round. QDMA suggests that each landowner survey their own needs, and the requirements of their particular herd, in order to determine if prescribed burning, tree thinning, planting food plots, and taking certain animals out as cull animals is what is needed for that landowners particular herd's best interest. Let's face the facts, regardless of how hard I work at it, I'm never going to produce a B&C record book deer in SC, but I can manage my herd to be the most productive that it can be, so that we can kill decent deer for the freezer, and maybe, get one worth hanging on the wall!!!

I agree with many deer management practices, but the "management" is only looking at the visible half of the equation. Does, although most often antlerless, carry the other half, the invisible half, of the antler equation. To manage for quality trophy antlers, females also carry half of the genetic code, and doe management, although necessary to control herd size and viability, could also be harming the "trophy" management.

Another point to consider is that not all of the "management" bucks will get culled in a single season, and still have opportunity to pass on their genetic potential. So it really is a little "give and take".

On the other hand, there are a lot of trophy hunters out there that will only shoot trophy animals, allowing the smaller racked bucks to walk. If that trend were to continue and become the overall norm, that selective breeding would mean that only small, deformed, or misshapen racks are deemed more "fit", and thus we would inadvertently be selecting FOR smaller or less "trophy" racks. Culling "management" bucks actually levels the playing field.

Just my thoughts!

deer management can be a wonderful thing if done correctly.we have been trying for several years here on my farm and my in-laws to do this.have gotten one of the neighbors to do the same thing.our biggest problem are the other neighbors.they shoot everything that moves since a person can take up to 4 deer in this area.this is part of the reason the state is down 17,000 deer from last year.we try very hard to shoot only 8pt or larger bucks that will score at least 120+.the last doe that was shot here,i shot as a mercy killing do to her already been shot and had a badly broken leg.it was 3 years ago.i can only try to convince the neighbor to do the same as we do but,once the deer leave here there isn't much i can do.

Deer management can only work on large tracts of land, or with cooperative neighbors. I read somewhere that, for a deer management strategy to work, you need at least 3000 acres (?). I don't remember the exact size that was mentioned, but I know it's more than I have. I still do my part though on my 250 acres and I have seen an improvement.

I posted my toughts on this in the Michigan forum not too long ago. Personally, I feel that QDMA is like one of those liberal lobbying groups that I see complained about so many times here. This group, to me, has alienated an entire hunting group. Those that do not have the property or the means to pay for and maintain food plots and pay biologists to study "thier" herds. They also feel that the deer herds cannot manage themselves and humans have to step in and do what they feel God cannot. How did they survive this long without our help? It has gotten to the point where here in lower Mi, we can no longer bait, but it is perfectly legal to plant and hunt over food plots. T.V. shows such as the Drury's show have no shame in the fact they are planting food plots and managing deer only for the purpose of growing bigger antlers. "Farming for wildlife." They do it for the money. I'm more like, Uncle Ted. To me, even the does, and spik horned backstrappers are trophy's. It is my opinion that people and groups like QDMA actually give the anti's more ammo. "They're more worried about the antlers on the deer than anyting else!" I guess I have no problem with a guy trying to supplimental feed, but to go and plant 1,000's acres is not supplimental feeding. As Graybeard said, you cannot breed an animal for 1 trait without negatively affecting them in some manner. Maybe within a few genrations, they will loose natural abitity to fight off disease or something to the like. When humans start playing God, bad things happen. It is my opinion, that all this frenzy of shooting monster bucks has to stop! Trying to play God for bragging rights because you shot the biggest deer this year, to me, is unacceptable. I'm happy shooting a nice 6pt. or even a doe for that matter. I am a trophy hunter. But, to me, the trophy is putting meat in my freezer. If I get a little bone to boot, great! If not, I get a full belly.

gcshp49, The main goal of QDMA is not to manage deer for "Trophies", it is designed to improve each landowners herd, by maximizing the quality of food, minerals, and the proper buck to doe ratios. QDMA was started, here in SC, and you don't see any deer from this state in any record books ( other than the SC state book)! What you can find is that those of us who practice deer management, have a much more balanced herd, that is also healthier. QDMA is designed so that every landowner can utilize different aspects of the program in ways that will benefit them, personally. Even if you do not own any land, if you are in a club, or even if you hunt public land, QDMA can work for you. I'd be willing to bet that the DNR in Michigan is useing some aspects of QDMA on the public lands up there. As for baiting and planting food plots, you can definetly blame the anti-hunting groups for influencing the state government and the DNR in each state. QDMA does not tell or suggest any types of regulations to the individual states, and certainly doesn't get involved with any states game management processes! QDMA is also an organization that is very politically involved in promoting hunting, as well as guns and gun rights, unlike the NAHC, which refuses to get involved.
I'd suggest that before you begin attacking QDMA, and certainly before likening the organization to the liberal anti-hunting groups, that you should attend a branch meeting in your area, or better yet go to one of their branch banquets and auctions. you will find that QDMA is very similar to DU, and the NWTF, and I doubt seriously that you would lump either of those organizations into the liberal anti-hunting associations!!!!!!!!

All Good Pionts!But the locations and purpose of most not all of these shows is to produce a show!The reality of same is that its nothing more than advertizing for the pay to play deer managers or deer farmers!The shows that stand out are more prone to appeal to someone who plays the game not pays to play.?(very few of these shows select a location to produce a product that leans toward reality,and profite instead of the whole game,win or lose.

Obviously, you've never watched the QDMA's TV program. It mostly consists of several wildlife biologists, sitting around a campfire discussing the "how to's" of planting food plots, timber management, controlled burns, and the best methods to HELP your deer herd. There is very little hunting on this program, just a lot of helpful information that just about anyone can put to use. The sponsors, are for the most part, seed companies, land and resource management companies, and farm implement companies. There aren't a lot of hunting outfitters and guides, nor even clothing, calls, or other "gadgets" who are sponsors.

sponsors=advertizing for $ and here in wi the deer herd you speak of be longs to the residents of our state!Asfar as land mgt & habitat,depending on the amount of acre,s (1,10,100,1000)who's deer herd is it,unless it's fenced in.Never said that good shows are not out there @Eastmans hunting for one stands out for western game.Just saying most are same ol same ol thats it. ps qdma is ok if it's approach helps you out on your lot.you just have to hope all and i do mean all the property owners next door and way beyond will comply. Watch the sun rise and what for it to set.

RT4, I have no doubt that there are a lot of good people in the QDMA. And, as stated, I have no problem with someone who puts in a food plot and wanting to control the overall number of deer on thier property. I do however have a problem with groups that try to influence how the entire state's herd should be managed based on QDM. My OPINION comes from talking to many differant people here in Mi and the progression of our bait ban took effect. It screams foul! And, to myself and those that I talk to here, it points directly to QDMA. While the vast majority of us are not allowed to do any type of baiting or "supplimental feeding," QDMA people are just tickled pink because they are not effected by this law in the least. They can continue on, business as usual.

cgshp49, what you are describing, sounds more like the Mi DNR using the QDMA as a scapegoat. I have never heard or read anything from official QDMA sources that would prohibit baiting or supplemental feeding. As a matter of fact, QDMA's official position is that supplemental feeding is a great tool for improving a herd, especially if done year 'round. Many of the Northern states have been trying to blaim CWD and other diseases on baiting, and it sounds like that group may be responsible for what has happened up there. If some of the folks who support such measures claim to represent the QDMA, I'd suggest that they are liars and do not have the support of Joe Hamilton and others within the QDMA organization!

That may very well be the case. Before the ban took effect here there was a lot of discussion of how disease's like CWD are spread. Baiting and supplimental feeding were labeled as the #1 culprits, saying the disease was spread by saliva on bait transmitting the disease from 1 animal to the next while food plots were more likened to natural browse and the likelyhood of transmission was virtually non-existant. They also blamed baiting/feeding to herd large groups of deer together making disease more likely to be transmitted. Within the next year, there was 1 deer brought into Mi. from Wis., I'm not 100% sure of whether it was privately brought in or the DNR, but the deer was placed in a "pen." Logically, the finger points to private as they stand to gain from a baiting ban, while the state has lost millions of sales tax dollars since the ban took effect. Within days of of being transported in, the deer was diagnosed with CWD. The very next day the laws were put into effect. The very next day! These laws were already drawn up and ready to go into place before the deer was even brought into the state. The part that screams foul to myself and those that I talk to is, why is it that I cannot put out a reasonable bait pile or rec. feed deer out behind my house, when someone with a food plot is attracting more deer than I with my feed. To us, it seems as though some sort of deal was struck like, "we won't fight the bait ban, just leave our expensive food plots alone." This exemption is what has many of us bothered and pointing to QDMA. Another theory that has been brought up is, these guys are just plain p.o'd that they spend a ton of money putting in and maintaining a food plot on thier property trying to grow trophy deer. Then, the guy next door that owns just enough land to hunt on puts out a bait pile and shoots one of "thier" deer. These are, as stated earlier, the opinions of myself and those that I have talked to over the last couple years. The only QDMAers that I have contact with are on these forums. Just aren't that many around in my area. Go to so. Mi, and you will find plenty, but around here, no.

Considering the fact that Joe Hamilton ( who started QDMA) is from Walterboro, SC, about 26 miles from my home, and I have hunted with him on numerous occasions; also, knowing that he is a wildlife biologist who specializes in deer and deer management states that baiting has not been proven to spread CWD, I tend to believe him! I plant food plots, and also bait all year 'round, as do most of the hunters and land owners in this part of SC, where it is legal to do so. We've never had a single case of CWD, Blue Tongue, or any other type of disease associated with deer. Upstate, where baiting ( and dog hunting ) is illegal has had one or two cases of CWD reported. To me, that tends to support the QDMA's position that supplemental feeding and baiting do not contribute to any of the diseases, and actually by trying to balance our herds by killing more does, probably helps to prevent the spread of such diseases! When I have hunted with Hamilton, he always pulls the jawbones, and checks any does that were killed to see if they were pregnant. He is more interested in the ageing of the deer, and the condition of the fetus', as well as the sex of the fetus'.
I will admit, that I get upset about the poachers who kill the deer that I work so hard to feed and keep on my property, that is why I seldom pass up a decent buck and don't hold out for a "trophy". I also hunt primarily for the meat, anyhow. I do know that many of the QDMA land owners in this area, try to protect their herds and will group together to improve the quality of their bucks in specific areas, but of course these folks are in contiguous areas, or on some of the barrier islands where they can control poachers, as well as what they kill, better than a small landowner such as myself. Since most of us hunt with dogs, as well as, over bait and food plots, the reality is we are trying to make our property more hospitable to the deer, in order that we can kill them when the time comes.

Blue tongue is not a baiting disease, caused more by draught and insects and larva on stagnent water.

I plant food plots, have feeders, and put out mineral blocks, salt blocks etc. On about 400 acres my neighbors and I try to keep the herd well fed, stabel buck to doe ratio.
Was working well until the draught a few years ago, for two years in a row, that caused blue tongue (nick name for the disease) whipped out the deer herd around here. Took DNR three years to say it happened when us land owners who live here year around had been telling them of the kill off after the first year. DNR does not listen to hunters, again a agency run by the government that thinks it knows a lot more then the people although in some cases that can be true.

I used to live in MI, always thought the problem started with the cow herds not the deer herds and was given to the deer by the cows.

twerth, like I said, the folks who are trying to blame the QDMA for the faults of their DNR, need to examine their DNR more closely! As is typical, these days, most problems have their roots in government agencies!!!!!

Yup, I agree with that, and not just hunting stuff either.

i think that the tv shows are only showing you one side of the management process. because lets face who wants to watch a guy sit there and shoot does. i live in an area where if it moves its dead. i have 200 ac. and have managed it for 5 years and i have had great success in managing the herd here. i have a spread sheet where i log in deer numbers and i try to thin does and mature bucks. i think if you provide quality food, bedding and water on your property you will give deer a reason to stay there. i dont think the "management movement" is bad, nor do i think it is hurting the deer population. if anything i have noticed better fawn numbers and higher quality bucks, plus i dont see the deers rib cages on trail cameras anymore lol. just my two cents

I live in Michigan and practice QDM. It is about the over all health of the deer population in general. Unless fenced, the deer heard belongs to ALL hunters. With that being said I hope that all my neighbors are practicing the same QDM I am. As far as I know the QMDA promotes the harvesting of mature animals. I feel a 7-8 yr old buck with a little rack is just as  much a trophy as a 170" B&C. Letting the smaller younger bucks (that usually have small racks) walk and waiting for a mature deer (doe or buck) is what I feel QDMA is about. Along with proper animal per acer and buck to doe ratios. The bait ban here in Michigan (which was just lifted) has no bearing on QDMA. The DNA was concerned with CWD and was trying to prevent it from spreading threw out the state. With practicing QDM I have got my buck to doe ratio to about 3 to 1 from about 11 to one and have taken 3 buck ranging in size from 120"-134" and alot of does for the freezer. I attribute it to my QDM practices (and my neighbors). May not be the "trophy" that TV is looking for but they were all mature animals. As far as food plots I have 4 on my 50 acers. They are all VERY small because I don't have access to big equiment (I use a rototiller and a hoe). I don't buy the name brand food plot blends that cost alot of money. I go to my local feed and seed to get my plot seed. Cost me $5 to plant a 1 acre plot. If you practice the QDM ( planting productive food plot doesn't take farm equiment and deep pockets just alot of hard work and swet) it will pay off. If  you doubt it give me a shout and I will take you to my little slice of heaven and you can see it first hand