Hunting Forum

I want to get a good "all a-rounder" that is fun/fairly inexpensive to shoot with one ammo selection and self defense with another (or with one if possible but I doubt it) or as best I could do, and was hoping to get a list of semi-autos to try before heading to the store.  As I don't know anything about handguns I started doing some research.  Please correct me if any of this is wrong.  

Remember that the military and all law enforcement take bids on their contracts, so whichever manufacturer is willing to provide the weapon at the best price, gets to be th supplier. 9mm is the choice, because it is the European caliber, so NATO and UN troops, as well as their member nations adopted the 9mm as the standard. There isn't much difference between the .40 and the .9mm, as far as knock down and accuracy, but the .40 does carry slightly more of a punch. The .45acp round used to be notoriously inaccurate due to it's tumbling rather than spiraling effect after firing. That has been solved through better and more accurate rifling of the barrels, and refinements made to the original 1911 Colt models. The .45 is usually a better choice because of the availability of heavier bullet weights and designs. It's also the caliber that is probably the most popular, after the .22lr.

As for the safety, many of the new style of .45s have the same type of grip safety as the original 1911, and some like Taurus have a manual safety and a trigger safety. There are several brands that have a manual safety, but the grip safety isn't any less safe than a manual slide or bar type safety. Most of the models available today have a chamber loaded indicator on them, so if the safety is a major concern, you might consider that feature.

There are also several manufacturers who have convertible models that can be switched from .22lr to .45, which allows the shooter to practice with the comparably speaking cheaper .22 ammo, but still be familiar with the gun when it's been converted to .45 acp.

When considering a semi-automatic handgun for personal carry and protection, it's important to consider how easy it is to conceal, as well as how accurate and reliable the gun will be. Springfield Armory's XDS and XDcompact models fit the bill and are right in the price range that most people are comfortable with. Taurus also has it's pt24/7 models that are very compact and easy to conceal. You will spend a little more for a Sig or a Glock, and a lot more for a Para, and can get downright outrageous with Kimber and obscene with Charles Daly and Wilson Combat. If the 1911 appeals to you, Rock Island Arms, American Armory, and Teos are some inexpensive companies that have some damn good products for the money.

As with any gun, it all boils down to what you choose for how it feels in your hand, how comfortable you are with the gun, what you can afford, and in simple terms just how you like it. Don't just take individual recommendations; but actually try to shoot as many different brands and models that you can, then make your decision based on your likes and dislikes. You might also check into what is legal for concealed carry in your state as the number one priority. Many states limit the size of a concealed weapon based on the axis measurement, which is the distance measured from the butt of the grip at an angle to the tip of the muzzle.

Good luck, and enjoy the process of making you own personal choice for both brand and caliber. Once you get started, you'll find that one handgun in your collection won't be enough.

Thanks I didn't know the NATO thing. Thats cool, and I always thought a 9mm handgun was more popular than the .45 but again newbie here. I was thinking about trying to find a range where I can rent/borrow and shoot a bunch of guns at once. I don't think cabelas or any other sporting store lets people shoot guns before you buy them do they?

RT hit the nail on the head, try as many as you can get your hands on and see what it is that you like. I am sure that he has his favorite, and I know that I do. However, as he said on the last line, one is not enough so my favorite depends on the circumstances. I however, would add one more thing for your consideration. It appears that you are limiting your search to autoloaders and that safety is a main concern. You are familiar with shotguns so my comments may not be totally applicable, but just in case. IMHO, wheel guns are safer than autoloaders for inexperienced shooters. When you pull the trigger on a wheel gun the gun goes off and then there is work that has to be done to make it go off again (either pull the hammer back or go thru the long hard pull of the double action). With an autoloader, you pull the trigger and there is another one in the chamber ready to fire with a slight trigger pull. It is also easy to see if a wheel gun is loaded or not, just open an look (not that, as you know, you ever treat a gun as unloaded), with an autoloader pulling the clip (For you purists, I know it’s not a clip, but that is the term almost everyone uses and everyone knows what I mean) does not unload it, you have to pull the slide back and inspect the chamber, which is not always easy. Finally, autoloaders have to be kept clean to make sure they will function properly (if you reload, then you have to be careful that you crimp properly so that they feed reliably). If used as a carry weapon, that is about the worst environment I can think of relative to cleanliness. Lint and stuff gets all over the gun which increasing the chance of a malfunction in the time of need. All that being said, most of my pistols are autoloaders 'cause I like them (I am a big guy, and my favorite is my Taurus PT1911).

Something you may want to consider in addition to the great advice given by RT.

jack

Being that you are new to handguns, I STRONGLY suggest a 22 rimfire, Cheap to shoot, no recoil to deal with while you are learning to control the handgun, and fun. Plenty of choices ranging from old west style revolvers (Ruger makes the Single Six with 22LR and 22 magnum cylinders, that was my first) to very modern autoloaders.

My $0.02

Dale

Personally I prefer the Taurus line of weapons. They come with a lifetime warranty and stand behind everything. I shoot a PT 99(9mm) and do my own loading. I have developed a load that is accurate and will compare very favorably with any .40 and most .45's ballistically speaking.

Something to consider is single vs. double stack magazines. Extra ammo can sometimes come in handy.

I also shoot wheel guns in various calibers. Everything said so far is accurate about the safety issue. If you consider a revolver, think about a .357. You can then use .38 special to plink and the heavier .357 for defense. They also are available everywhere and in several bullet configurations.

It comes down to what fits your hand and comfort zone. A test I ask newbies to use is pick up the gun as if you are going to fire it, and see what feels natural and comeson target easily and automatically...that one will be the one that performs the best in YOUR hand.

thanks I'll try the hand thing when I stop by the store! Are there any size issues I should worry about? I assume one could be too small and not fit in my hand, but is there something that would be too big to reasonably carry?

There are a lot of handguns that are big such as the Magnum Research .50 caliber semi auto and such. For years I carried a Para Ordnance Wart Hog in .45acp but after Springfield starting importing and selling the new XDs I have replaced the Para with the Springfield. You are on the right track of finding a store that rents handguns and find the ones you like and shoot them so you can make the decision on which one you buy. Being new to handguns I like the idea of buying a .22 and start with it and then after you have become proficient with it you can then buy whichever handgun in the caliber you like best. For CCW I prefer the .45acp for it's inherent stopping power. Any handgun even the .22 will stop an attacker if the bullet is placed where it needs to be. Just follow through with your plan of trying many different makes and models and find the caliber which you can shoot the most accurate. The best to you in your search. Keep us updated on what you buy and in what caliber you decide on.

I agree with starting on a .22. Beyond that, just try a lot in your hand - when something "just feels right," you will probably do well with it. It's a lot like buying shoes.
Many folks do well with a Ruger Mk 1,2,or3. Learning the hand-eye coordination of shooting is tough enough without battling recoil and muzzle blast at the same time. Of course remember the hearing protection, not just to preserve your hearing (which is reason enough) but to improve your concentration on sights, trigger and target. I often start beginners with both earplugs and muffs for that reason.
Just to add my 2 cents to the 9mm vs 45 discussion, I'll repeat what my cousin, formerly an instructor at West Point, said." Military amateurs talk about weapons and tactics; professionals talk about information and logistics." The final change to 9mm by the US was mostly driven by the bitter experience of the Yom Kipper War, during which the lateral transfer of logistics (including ammunition) between allies was a critical factor - something which NATO had been discussing since the mid '50's. The US had agreed in principle back then, but the change was not implemented until our 1930/40's vintage 1911's were hopelessly worn out.

Logistics be damned!! When ya have a insane, screamin' fool chargeing at you, and one round out of a .45acp will put'um down, but it takes 4--5--6-- rounds from a 9mm, logistics indicates that the .45 acp is a better weapon, and that is the reason that many branches of our armed forces are now going BACK to the .45acp!
Allen

A handgun is just that ~ it "needs" to fit YOUR hand !

9mm is a good mid sized caliber with plenty of ammo choices available.............................

If my memory serves me correctly, one of the main reasons the US military went to the .45 in the olden days was due to Black Jack Pershing and his experiences in the Philippines fighting the Moros. As Allen put it, what old Black Jack found was that the drugged up Moros fighters would take several hits from the .38 Long Colt in use at the time and keep charging and able to spear the poor guy doing the shooting before dying. With the .45 caliber round, you could shoot the same Moros and live to tell about it because the went down now.

Please do not missunderstand, I am not arguing that one needs to carry a .45 ACP, just agreeing with Allen, that for stopping power, it is hard to beat the .45 (and for me in a 1911). That being said, I own pistols with much less stopping power too (.25 ACP and .380 ACP).

jack

Love the 1911 in .45 but not easy to carry and heavy. (mine is stainless) I like it because I can deer hunt with it also.

I believe the sig 220 has exchangable actions for diffferent calibers. I would just love one but pricey!

.22's are a dime a dozen, as suggested earlier, get one in double action for practice and confidence building.

Just have fun!

I decided to let those with more experience speak first before adding a reply.  I have made several post in the last year and a half about my own venture into hand guns.  In this post I give a good summary http://www.huntingclub.com/connect/...ft/192343.  My goal was to kill a deer with a handgun which I did accomplish, decide what your goal is.  Use that to guide you on your way. 


-MD

Dual cal pistols are something to look at. Like 357 can shoot 38s, my sig 229 with barrel change, ( $165) can shoot 357s it is a 40 cal now.

The .45ACP has better "1-shot-stop" records than the 9mm Luger round for sure. However, all things being equal, the .32 Auto 71 gr Winchester Silvertip has the same 1-shot-stop record as the glorified 230 Gr. .45 ACP hard-ball in actual street results. I used to study those tables and charts religiously and knew them by heart making me a highly sought-out "expert" at the gun stores I worked by customers. Nowdays however I rely on the notion that in a gunfight you just need a dern gun 2 seconds ago regardless of aliber or chambering of cool bullet name. For defense, a .22 LR deringer beats the .50 BMG if you HAVE IT in your hand the moment you need it and the .50 is tucked neatly away at home in the closet because it was too uncomfortable to carry that day.

The instructor I use normally tells the tale of a Nashville area security guard whose life was saved by his ball-cap style uniform cap when a punk fired a 9mm off in his face. The guard's cap flew off his head and he was able to fight and subdue the punk. Afterwards picking up his cap he found that the slug had hit the front edge of the bill of the cap and deflected upward just enough to penetrate the cap micrometers above his head inside! So, the 9mm is not good right? Well, then there is the .45 ACP slug that is on interrogation rm video of a guy placing his 1911 to his left temple and pulling the trigger. Kills him stone-dead but there was no exit! The great .45 ACP just went in and stopped someplace in the soft brain. I have seen the dashboard camera of a SC Trooper that pumped 6 full-house .357 Mag loads into the torso of a prety stocky but short assailant at mere inches from the guy. This was a second after the guy used a .22 Mag deringer to fire a shot at the Trooper. Result? Tropper died minutes later as the little .22 went under his arm above his vest and sliced through lung. The goon? He's serving life in prison alive and well. And the .357 Mag is the #1 man-stopping handgun round we have by actual street reuslts.

How do we get a "one-shot-stop?" Simply put, when assaulted you fire 1 shot into the assailant. If he stops the assault after getting hit 1 time - you get a "one-shot-stop." Will any handgun round dump a guy flat on his back in a Hollywood-dramatic manner? Nope. Simple physics state that for every action there is an EQAUL reaction. Meaning if you fired a bullet capable of flat knocking a badguy down then YOU as the shooter would get knocked down in the same manner. A body can react wierd to getting struck, but that is not the bullet's incredible energy doing that it is the body reacting to impact. Many times soldiers come out of an intense firefight not even knowing they got hit by a RIFLE round. Remember Reagan was unaware for several minutes that he had been shot by the .22LR lead slug from Hinkley's revolver. Then again, there are times when a little .22 hit can cause a body to jerk violently because the right nerves were damaged.

Well, as to the question about what to start with, the .22 LR is the usual go-to first starter round. Ammo is usually cheap and there is less recoil to deal with as you learn. But if you are really wanting more then the .38 Spl is hard to beat in a revolver. The semi autos are fun for sure but take more effort to master and 99% of shooters never really master them regardless of how often they shoot or think they have mastered them. Being in many classes as a pupil and instructor I really have only seen personally 1 man that I would say had mastered his semi-auto handguns although HE would have declared that he had not. He was back from the Mid-East where he had served 3 tours and had then been working for Blackwater before coming back. He was "spooky." But he was really impressive with a semi-auto. All the rest of us, instructors and students alike were astounded just listening to and watching him.

For educational purposes, Glocks have safeties as do all guns. NO gun needs an added external safety unless it is a single-action design. The double-action revolver is probably considered by most the safest os handguns and has no manual safety either. The trigger has a long heavy pull that you just cannot accidentally pull to make the gun go off. The Glock is a double-action design technically. It's failing is that it is a light pull. You can replace the trigger with the "NY' Trigger" which is really a better option anyway for Glock-users if they actually carry their Glock for defense and gives them an added legal leg to stand on in court but few choose it believeing that they have indeed mastered their Glock (see above). Glock's biggest failing however is the same failing all the striker-fired designs suffer from which is they can and will fire slightly out of battery. If you have a case that is a tad too long, or is larger than it should be by a mere couple of thousandths of an inch, or was not sized properly or trimmed or even crimpled properly, if the chamber is dirty or if the extractor has crud under it, any and all of these can cause the gun to fail to 100% lock into battery and when you pull the trigger the entire recoil force of the fired cartridge will throw the slide back hard enough to damae the gun or even destroy it. I am not down on them myself, just think the manufacturers should do a more responsible job informing the consumer of the quirk and all of us must be continually aware of it.