JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 12 Jan 2013 05:50 PM |
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I just recently started rifle shooting. I also just found out that you are suppose to let copper solvent sit for about 15 minutes. After I let the solvent sit for 15 minutes I run a wire brush down the barrel for about 10 strokes, then run some patches. The patches are comming back black. I was told that if there was a copper build up it would be green. After repeating this process five times the patches are not comming out any cleaner, just as blasck as the first one. I am cleaning this bolt from the breach. Any suggestions on gun cleaning. I feel that my groups have gotten wider since the gun was brand new. I understand that this could be because of fouling of the riflings.
HELP
Joe Termite
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jboshoven
Posts:199
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| 12 Jan 2013 08:21 PM |
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I am probably going to take a lot of heat for this but . . .
I very rarely use a brush to clean my barrels. The only exception is if I shoot lead rounds in my pistol and I get lead build-up. For guns that I am shooting regularly, I hang them on the wall on a horizontal gun rack. I usually finish cleaning them by running a wet patch with Hoppe's #9 just before putting on the rack. I am careful not to have the patch too wet because if it drips onto Momma's couch then I catch it from the wife. For gun's that I am not regularly shooting and therefore storing in my safe (vertically) I run a very very lightly oiled patch thru them so that the barrel is protected, but I do not have free oil to run down into the action and stock to gum it up. As I rotate the guns through the safe, they all are kept clean by storing them on the horizontal racks and allowing the Hoppes to dissolve any copper fouling in the barrel. Of course, that means that before transferring to the safe, or taking out shooting or hunting, I have to run patches through the barrel to clean out the softened fouling and/or excess Hoppe's #9 left in the barrel. I have guns that have been treated that way from before I was born that still hold groups of well under a MOA on the bench. All my guns shoot under a MOA and I have never had one stray from that once I got it and a load tuned. In my opinion, all brushing a barrel does is reduce its life because you were on the rifling. (As I said when I shoot soft lead in my pistols, I have no choice but to clean more aggressively).
To your issue, not sure what you are shooting, but for some of my target and varmint rifles I shoot moly-coated bullets and the patches come out black when I clean them, so that may be it. Copper is stubborn and is only green when it oxidizes so if you have un-oxidized copper that you are cleaning out, it can appear black too.
Bottom line, I suggest you find a place you can have store the gun horizontally (barrel slightly tipped down on the exit end) and run a wet patch through the gun with Hoppe's #9 and leave it for a couple of days and then clean, and repeat. Be careful that you do not use this process with something like Sweets that has Ammonia in it. Using my method there will only guarantee a corroded barrel. In addition, as I stated above, if you store your guns vertical, I do not recommend leaving the barrels "wet" because it all runs down into the action and stock causing other problems.
Ok, I am ready to hear why I am ruining my guns (cringe)
Jack
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SDOWLING
Posts:204
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| 12 Jan 2013 08:52 PM |
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"All my guns shoot under a MOA..............." jboshoven
All that needs to be said ~ keep doing whatever you're doing ! |
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JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 13 Jan 2013 12:00 AM |
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I am reloading .300 win mag Nosler Ballistic Tips. Will t.ry the hoppes method.
Thanks
Joe |
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JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 13 Jan 2013 07:08 AM |
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Well this morning when I woke up thinking about this, I went down stairs and ran a very wet patch of Hoppes #9 down the barrel. I just ran another wet patch. This was the first time I ever saw a GREEN PATCH. And I mean really green. This really surprised me. I ran several more patches with #9 on them. I have now turned the gun up side down so the solvent will soak on the top of the Barrel (picked that up from the gun shop.) Am going to let this soak till at least lunch time. Will post on my progress.
Joe
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dk99300
Posts:259
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| 13 Jan 2013 09:20 AM |
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If your bore is really fouled, use one of the foaming bore cleaners like Wipe Out. For normal cleaning (once a year after hunting season) I usually use Shooter's Choice and follow the directions on the bottle.
Dale |
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TGJ
Posts:187
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| 13 Jan 2013 11:54 AM |
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The black is carbon residue from the powder. To get the copper and make cleaning easy I would use a foaming cleaner. #9 does a poor job of cleaning out copper, a better cleaner for copper is Barnes CR10, sweets 7.62 or many other designed for copper cleaning. Also always read the derictions on the cleaner as many should not be left in the barrel for any length of time. |
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aaronvan
Posts:125
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| 13 Jan 2013 06:51 PM |
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Joe this is what i do,
First off i get the carbon out then you can work on the copper if you are breaking it in. If you really want to get the copper out get some sweets 7.62 copper remover( use in a well ventalated area) follow the directions on the bottle to a T if you do you might only need a brush for stubborn deposits when it comes time to clean out the sweets run a patch thru soaked in peroxide and take your time pushing it out it sould take about 30 sec to do so. The reason forslowing down is the sweets turns the solid copper into a liquid state and the peroxide will suspend it and keep it out of the grooves once done doing this run several water soaked patches thru toclean out the 2 peroxide patches once its dry take a clean patch and stop it about 2" from the muzzle get a flashlight and look down the barrel if you see any copper repeat the process ifit comes out free ofcopper run a lightly oiled patch down the barrel for storage and never shoot your if the barrel is dry. Once its broken in you will only need to clean the carbon out and can leave the little copper streaks in as long as they dont rob your accuracy. Hope this helps |
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JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 15 Jan 2013 10:57 AM |
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Bought some foamer,smells like amonia. Definelty took out the carbon. Did nothing for the copper. Have been letting the Hoppes #9
sit in the barrel for 12 hours at a time. This morning there was very little green on the patch moslty black/gray. So it appears I am on the way to clean barrels.
Joe
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Shiloh
Posts:546
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| 15 Jan 2013 12:56 PM |
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It really takes a lot of copper fouling to make any difference so don't worry about it unless you shoot a lot and want sub-m.o.a. accuracy. The normal hunting rifle will likely never see enough copper fouling to make you notice a loss of accuracy. Be sure when using your copper solvents that you do not use a bronze (copper) brush as well. You will never get all the copper off the patches because you are dissolving the brush. |
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ckell
Posts:788
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| 15 Jan 2013 01:37 PM |
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Shi did you see the tread about the AK 47 Problem, you are the best to comment on that question. |
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rthomas4
Posts:2334
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| 16 Jan 2013 06:42 AM |
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I ran some patches with gun scrubber on them down the barrel of my Encore, and changed the point of impact by about 4 inches, so yesterday I made one single (16 clicks) adjustment for the drop, and put it back on perfect zero. It's amazing to me what a difference a clean bore compared to a slightly fouled one will make in shot accuracy! |
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JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 16 Jan 2013 05:53 PM |
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Hey Shiloh,
I have shot about 600 rounds through our two .300 win mags in a year. Do you consider that shooting alot. The barrels are getting cleaner every day. And I am not using the bronze brushes.
Joe
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Shiloh
Posts:546
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| 17 Jan 2013 11:10 AM |
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Yeah Joe, that is shooting a lot. Very few hunting rifles really get fired more than 20 shots in a year. Some have not had 20 shots fired in 5 years even. Some guys I have talked to over the years are convinced they have fired their rifle thousands of times but when you really get them talking they talk about sighting in with a few shots a year.
It does take quite a bit of copper fouling to change points of impact much at all though. It is not loke lead that literally clogs grooves. Copper leaves a very faint smear typically right at the throat of the bore that begins ranging forward over time. It will appear more as a faint copper color. It is best to stay on top of that to keep it from becoming a problem, but nothing the average guy should worry over. |
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| I like my guns towed & crew-served!
http://www.nps.gov/stri/
http://www.blockaderunner.com/
http://www.9thky.org/
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PVIGILETTI
Posts:298
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| 17 Jan 2013 06:01 PM |
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I use Butch's bore shine on all my rifles,this really gets all the copper out.I have not had to use a brush on any barrel I have cleaned with it.Very powerful cleaner. |
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JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 17 Jan 2013 06:52 PM |
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So I guess 600 is alot.
Still running patches and getting green. Not much, but green. Tomorrow I am gonna run a patch from the muzzel down . Will do this a little at a time trying to determine where the green is. No I am not using a stainless steel rod. I believe the green is in thr breach. This is with the Hoppes #9 and no brush. Starting to worry about over brushing.
Joe |
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jboshoven
Posts:199
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| 18 Jan 2013 04:28 PM |
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Joe
What kind of groups are you getting. My guns only meet the "Not much, but green." criteria and I do not see any impact on accuracy. (That is over something like eight rifles from a .222 Rem to a .338 Win Mag. All shoot well under a MOA (especially the .222 and 22-250 and .338)
jack |
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JoeTermite
Posts:173
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| 19 Jan 2013 06:28 AM |
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I am using a Burris Elimator scope on both of these .300 win mag Browning A-Bolts. I do not consider these scopes to be target scopes but hunting scopes. I was shooting sub moa. 1/2 " at 100 yards and 1-1 1/2 " at 200 yards. This was when the rifles were brand new. When I realized there was some kind of problem I was 2 to 2/12" at 100 yards. Could not figure out what the problem could be. Yea, I am getting older, just yesterday I got a senior discount on a Field and Stream Subscribtion. But anyhow this lead me to the fact that I was not cleaning the guns correctly.
I ran some #9 down the barrels yesterday morning. This morning I ran some patches down the barrel from the bore, about about 6" at at time. Second 6" came out with a little green on both guns and some more farther down. Have been working on these guns for about a week. Will keep at it till I get no green. Did try some foam, followed the directions and got no green.
So you could say I am now on a quest to get no green. Or at least almost no green. Oh, to answer your question, I have not shot either rifle since I started this. Hell it's damn cold out side, and it gives me something to do inside.
I do not believe it to be the scopes for it would have to be both of them.
Later,
Joe
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dgiampietro
Posts:12
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| 19 Jan 2013 06:58 AM |
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Try Gunslick Foam, Hoppes #9, Carb-cleaner (to neutralize), Oil, & the Montana Extreme bore brushes.
The most difficult thing to do is wait while the foam does it's job (20-30 min).
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gutpile
Posts:481
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| 19 Jan 2013 10:37 AM |
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After every time I shoot my rifles I clean them doesn't matter if I shot one shot hunting or thirty at the range. Before it goes in the gun cabinet it gets cleaned. My last pass is with a light coat of oil. Before I go out shooting I run a dry patch through the barrel. My 7mm Rem mag shoots clover leaves at 100yds my 223 shoots one big hole at same. This is off a bench of course. |
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