Hunting Forum

It was simple back then. The bullets were pretty much constructed the same way. About the only common premium bullet was the Partition. And most guys weren't running in excess of 3000 fps. Cup and Core bullets work fine at 3000 or less. If you were hunting heavier game, you used a heavier bullet. Because you knew it was going to lose some weight.

Things have changed in considerably in the bullet and cartridge world. Monometal bullets ain't the same as a cup and core. Plus there are a lot more varmint and target bullets commonly available. And the 'fast' cartridges are more common. A person really needs to do his homework on bullet selection any more.

You can get a 130 gr bullet that will penetrate and kill just as well as a 180 grain in the same cartridge. Or not if you make the wrong choice.

Dale

Posted By ahoffman2 on 24 Feb 2013 12:13 PM
WOW, makes one wonder, how us older folks, that have been hunting for over 60 years, and have shot durn near every type of animal on this hemesphere were able to kill, and not loose any, of the critters we shot!
Allen

My guess would be that you must have shot well.  Bullet placement is more important than bullet diameter, weight or type.

You actually want a bullet that will transfer its energy all the way through the animal. Not expend its energy half way through. The 130 grain bullet will do the job. I have used my 270 for elk before I got my 30-06 and 30-338 magnum. I used 150 grain bullets out of my 270. They work better for penetration. They killed the elk faster.

You actually want a bullet that will transfer its energy all the way through the animal. Not expend its energy half way through.

Perhaps the quickest elk kill and the 2nd largest rack bull that I ever killed happened exactly like that.

I was doing a DIY, solo, backpack bighorn sheep hunt in one of Montana's unlimited sheep tag units in the AB Wilderness north of Yellowstone NP. It was my first time in that area, and I think it was my first sheep hunt. It was early September and I hadn't seen any sheep or even any sheep sign, but I had seen a few elk and they were beginning to bugle.

About the 3rd morning of my hunt I was walking from my camp to a ridge where I hoped to glass for sheep, when there was a loud bugle not far away. I crouched down and waited. The sound of the bugles got closer, and soon I could see the ivory tips and the almost black 6x6 antlers moving through the lodgepole pines. He stopped broadside to bugle about 75 yards from me.

I was hunting with my .257 Ackley loaded with 117 gr Sierra GameKing bullets. I then forgot all about sheep hunting, and put the crosshairs of my 6x Leupold in the crease just behing the bull's shoulder. When the shot went off, the bull simply collapsed straight down where he was standing and never moved again.

The bullet hit a rib going in, it shredded the lungs and heart, and didn't even cut the inside of the opposite rib cage. 100% of that bullet's energy was expended inside that bull's chest.

His antlers were very symmetrical and in just about perfect shape. He net scored 330 B&C inches. I finally got him mounted quite a few years later, but had to use a cape from another bull that I had shot. Of course I had him mounted bugling, and every day since I have enjoyed looking at him on my wall and remembering that hunt.

Posted By bigrig on 22 Dec 2012 08:00 AM
I just got back from an unsuccessful elk hunt in Flagstaff, Az.  My brother in law got his.  And my nephew got his.  Before we started the hunt.  They were showing me the bullets they had loaded for the 330 Weatherby's.  They had loaded 168 grain Nosler poly tipped bullets.  I told them that they should should have gone with a heavier weight and a heavier constucted bullet.  I predicted what was going to happen before the hunt started.  The bullets were just going to explode on the elk.  Well,  I was a real unpopular person when we skinned the elk when I said " See what I was saying?  Look at all the damage those bullets did.  It should have taken 1. Maybe 2 shots.  Not 4 or 5 like it took you."  Well,  even though the proof was right there in front of them.  I still didn't know what I was talking about.  I couldn't convince them that you want a bullet to  pass thru an animal.  With all that goes with that argument.  They were convinced that the energy should be stopped in the animal. I tried to tell them that they wanted at least a 180 grain bullet.  I prefer a 190 grain Hornady interlock in my 30-338 magnum.  The 180 has worked with one shot before. 


YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE WEIGHT OF THE BULLET BIGRIG.. I HAVE SHOOT MANY BULLETS IN MY TIME , i'M A RETIRED USMC SNIPER AND STILL SHOOT A LOT AND DO A LOT OF HUNTING .. I SHOOT A AXIS CAMO 30/06 AND HAVE SHOT MANY ELK WITH IT AND LOAD IT WITH A GMX 180GR WITH H380 AND , I CAN TELL YA IT PUT'S THEM RIGHT DOWN AT 400YRDS .. THE LONGEST SHOT TAKEN WITH THEM WAS AT 680YRDS AND STILL TOOK A 6X7 DOWN RIGHT NOW.. I TO LOAD ALL OF MY OWN AMMO AND HAVE BEEN LOADING FOR A LONG LONG TIME AND HAVE HAD NO PROBLEMS WITH MY AMMO DOING THE JOB .. I LOAD AMMO FOR MANY RIFLES AND PISTOLS AND THE TOOLS MAKE A BIG DIFFERANCE.. IF YOU DONT HAVE THE RIGHT ONES FOR THE JOB DONT DO IT IS WHAT , I SAY.. WHEN , I WAS IN THE USMC SNIPER SCHOOL , I MADE A SHOOT AT 1125YRDS AND HIT IT DEAD IN THE X AND THE INSTRUCTOR SAID WHERE DID YOU GET YOUR AMMO AND , I TOLD HIM THAT , I LOADED IT MY SELF HE WAS VERY HAPPY TO KNOW THAT A SHOOTER COULD LOAD AMMO LIKE THAT AND TOLD ME THAT HE TRUSTED MY LOADS.. IF YOU OR ANYBODY NEEDS HELP WITH THERE LOADING PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ASK ME ANYTHING.. REMEMBER SAFE NOT SORRY..

Well, whether anyone has come right and said it is up in the air....I will. 150 grain Ballistic Tips ARE TOO LIGHT TO SHOOT AT ELK FROM A .30 CALIBER RIFLE. Secondly, I imagine the distance they actually shot the elk were shorter than their eyes told them. Why? People with range finders will say, "I shot that elk at 237 yards...I shot that deer at 411 yards..." Not, "I think I maybe shot it at 300 or 500 yards, heck, it could of been a mile!" Especially describing the destruction you said it did. At 600 or 700 yards that bullet should of held together a little better as a 150 grain bullet out of a .30 caliber rifle is going to shed velocity much faster than any of the neavier bullets everyone has been talking about here. A third thing I have noticed here is everyone's "Magnum Mania." There isn't anything a 30-338 Weatherby will do to an elk that a 6.5x55 Swede can't. It sounds like that not only did they choose an improper bullet, but they also forget that even a bad bullet placed in a good area will usaully do the trick. Advise them to shoot less gun also. the .270, 30-06, 30-30 Win, 308 Win, .280 Rem, 7-08, 7x57, 260 Rem, 25-06, and a plethora of other non-magnum calibers are dandy elk getters. They kill elk cleanly, with less recoil, and more shooter confidence. Lastly, elk are tough animals, choose a tough bullet of proper construction. Such as a 150 grain 7mm homogenous bullet, or a bonded bullet. If you want a traditional cup and core bullet, use a 160 grain 7mm bullet. The same applies to all calibers. Use a "standard" weight premium bullet, or a heavier traditional bullet. And bullets don't have to pass through an animal. If you are in an area where tracking is tough, it helps, but it isn't neccessary. What is neccessary, no matter which bullet you choose, is that is penetrates into an animals vitals and destroys tissue and organs on the way through. If not, your elk will show you how tough they are and you will be putting your tag on a rotten carcass three days later.

oh, one more thing...I've never considered a hunt to ever of been "unsuccessful," even if i didn't get an animal. Hunting opportunities are getting harder and harder to come by as public lands shrink, and hunting becomes more and more of a fad. It's just like the housing market. The nifty hunting shows are driving up prices and tag competition, as well as states that drive out their hunters to seek land in other states. I am but one man, I can't compete with 75 Texans who don't mind hunting back to back. Someday the "hunting fad bubble" will burst, but us hunters who hunt for food and tradition won't be able to pay the prices that aren't going to come down. So, anytime you can get into the woods, enjoy it, dead critter or not, it's successful.

I always find it interesting when this subject comes up that two critical elements are missing from the discussion:
1) the impact velocity of the projectile in question. (Not the muzzle velocity) The 300 Ultramag is behaving exactly like the venerable 300 Savage at 50 yds after traveling 500 Yds. So a simple Core-Loct should perform just fine at 500 yds. The problem is getting the same bullet to not shatter when the critter pops out of the brush at 75 yds and impacts at 3300 fps.
2) the exact anatomical structures which are hit. After all, it is not really the bullet that dispatches the critter, it is the disruption of vital functions. To say an elk w{1}**** "in the shoulder" in meaningless. A "1-inch hole through both ventricles" says a great deal.
For example: The elk I shot a few years ago w{1}**** with a 6.5x55 firing a 140 Gr Sierra BT at a range of 60 yds, an impact velocity of about 2700 FPS. The bullet entered between the right 4 & 5th ribs, fractured the heart in half just below the valves, leaving only the coronary arteries holding the top and bottom together. It then made a 1" diameter hole through the left lung and stopped halfway out of the chest between the left 5th & 6th ribs. The recovered bullet was 62 x 60 caliber and weighed 102 grains. The respectable 6x6 went about 15 yds before collapsing.

My brother in law was shooting a 300 Weatherby Magnum loaded with 168 grain bullets.  He says the range by the range finder was 463 yards.  I sat where he shot from and tried to figure out how his range finder registered that range.  It doesn't look any farther than 300 at the most.  It looked more like 250.  That bullet was carrying the mail when it left the barrel.  Most of them exploded on contact with the hide.  that tells me that the range was much closer than he claims.  the good thing is.  Apparently they did listen to me after all.  Like was said in an earlier post.  I may of come on a bit strong when I was making my point.  the nephew that got angry at the time was here visiting and told me that they had gone to the Barnes 180 grain TTSX bullets.  I told him that is a better bullet than they were using.  And said that if they wanted to use a lighter bullet.  It would work with the Barnes.  I suggested either a 165 or 168 grain before he told me what they already had.  Barnes makes both.  But, they already have the other bullets which will work well.  The main thing is.  They actually did listen to me.  Being that we didn't have chronographs set up.  It's hard to say what the impact velocity was.  I actually do have some Nosler 180 grain bullets that I was being brain dead when I bought them.  The label says what they can be used on.  Elk is one of the animals it lists.  It says they can be used on African game also.  To be honest.  I was thinking I was buying 190 grain.  I didn't realize what I had until I got them home.  I'll give them a try.  My first elk elk was shot with a Speer 180 grain btsp.  It broke one rib going in.  Blew a three inch hole thru both lungs.  And  took the arteries off the top of his heart while going thru both shoulder blades.  This bullet stopped under the skin and still weighed 117 grains.

At 250 yards, the 168 gr Ballistic Tip that started at 3200-3300 fps (300 Wby) will be still traveling about 2900FPS. This is the upper design limit for a Ballistic Tip, which is intended for 1800-2900fps. And an elk's hide is much tougher than a deer. If the range had really been 400 yds+, the velocity would have been down to the middle of the design range, about 2400-2500 fps and would have held together better and penetrated better. The velocity = penetration paradigm only applies to solids, and even then there are a bunch of "ifs."
I suspect that the error in ranging is either "operator headspace" - understandable in the face of live game; buck fever affects reading skills as much as shooting skills - or that he was ranging on the elk or nearby vegetation. Try to range off hard flat objects like dirt or rocks to prevent falsely long ranges.
While the homogeneous bullets like Barnes TS's have changed some of the rules of terminal ballistics, the old rule that "big critters demand high sectional densities" is still applicable. Consider the huge sectional density of an arrow completely penetrating an elk's chest at a paltry 200 fps.