Hunting Forum

I just got back from an unsuccessful elk hunt in Flagstaff, Az.  My brother in law got his.  And my nephew got his.  Before we started the hunt.  They were showing me the bullets they had loaded for the 330 Weatherby's.  They had loaded 168 grain Nosler poly tipped bullets.  I told them that they should should have gone with a heavier weight and a heavier constucted bullet.  I predicted what was going to happen before the hunt started.  The bullets were just going to explode on the elk.  Well,  I was a real unpopular person when we skinned the elk when I said " See what I was saying?  Look at all the damage those bullets did.  It should have taken 1. Maybe 2 shots.  Not 4 or 5 like it took you."  Well,  even though the proof was right there in front of them.  I still didn't know what I was talking about.  I couldn't convince them that you want a bullet to  pass thru an animal.  With all that goes with that argument.  They were convinced that the energy should be stopped in the animal. I tried to tell them that they wanted at least a 180 grain bullet.  I prefer a 190 grain Hornady interlock in my 30-338 magnum.  The 180 has worked with one shot before. 

A lot of folks do not liked to be preached too. I have found a simple, "this is what works well for me" works without p-ssing them off. Also not all poly tipped bullets are the same, bonded or mono will give the two holes you are preferring, as I'am sure you know. I guess their choice of bullets did work, two dead elk, just not to your liking. Enjoy the hunt with family in the end that is what matters..

Not all polymer tip bullets fall apart like Noslers. Newer bullets that are bonded or solid copper can be lighter weight and pass through large animals. I use Hornady Interbonds for elk and Interlocks for deer/practice, both 180 gr in a 300 win mag. I got lucky, they both group the same at 200 yd. zero.

Bullet weight doesn't necessarily mean a lot any more. It really depends on the construction and type of bullet. Both the Nosler Ballistic Tip and the Accubond have polymer tips but are completely different in their construction and performance. And the Barnes TSX, Bergers, and others are completely different critters too. Yet all will work, you just need to select the right tool for job. And know how that tool is designed to perform.

In a 300 mag, I would run a 150 grain TSX but if I was running a standard cup and core like a Corelokt, then I would want the 180 or 200 grainers.

Do you tell them what kind of car to drive too?

Dale

First,  I have to correct my first post.  You probably already figured it out.  A typo.  300 Weatherby.  Not 330.I'll have to work on that.  Maybe instead of  preaching.  Try harder on trying to teach. I honestly didn't mean it to sound like I was preaching.  I should maybe have used a better tact in pointing out how the bullets failed. Yes, the bullets did work.  Eventially.  You should have seen the damage they did.  There was a lot of destroyed blood shot meat that could have been saved if they had used a bullet constructed for the job.  I have blown holes thru elk and brought them down with one shot using 190 grain interlocks. Some of the 168 grainers didn't even make it to the vitals.The only one that was recovered weighed about 67 grains.  It passed between the ribs on one sideand hit one rib on the other. It destroyed the liver. 
And, no.  I don't tell them what kind of car to buy.  They just don't do as much reloading as I do.  They don't look into what works best.  They listen to some self proclaimed expert that hasn't shot anything bigger than a human being say that a certain bullet works on everything.  I was just trying to keep them from causing the animal more pain and trauma than neccesary.  Its unethical to go out and do that to an animal when you don't have the vagest idea of what your doing. Just taking the word of some jerk that doesn't know what he's talking about. It shouldn't have taken 4 shots on one.  And 5 shots on the other.  We're talking 450 yard shots on one.  And, about 6 to 7 hundred yards on the other.  At least thats what they said the range was.  I was in another part of the unit.  Your partly right.  A lead core bullet is going to shed a lot of weight  if it's being driven too fast when it connects with its target.  Depending on its construction.  Some will shed more than others. You would have felt the same way I did if you had seen what I saw. We had to throw away a lot more meat than we should have because of the bullet they were using.  I'll admit that there is a lot more that I would like to know about bullet performance.  But, I think its clear I know more than they do.  Now, If I were using like TSX bullets which I did have for my 30-06.  I would go down to maybe a 168 grain.  For my 06.  I had 180 grain.  For my 30-338 magnum.  I had 190 grain Hornady Interlocks.

Sorry about the car crack, the tone (my way is the only way) I got from reading your post just rubbed me the wrong way. It sounds like the Ballistic Tip (you just said polymer tip in the OP) worked as designed. It met your relatives expectations and killed the critters. Maybe based on the way it worked,they will change their expectations for next time. Hell, even Nosler promotes the BT's for deer, antelope, and sheep but doesn't mention elk. Incidentally, certain Ballistic Tip bullets are 'tougher' than others, I don't think the the 168's are one of the tougher ones.

So their tool of choice worked, but wasn't ideal. Sometimes the hardest thing to do is say 'Nice Critter' and shut up.

Dale

I think I have read that there is one that will work on bigger critters like elk.  Which one it is.  I can't remember.  I did say nice elk.  I just have to learn to keep my mouth shut when I see that again.  If it sounded like I was saying my way is the only way. It really wasn't intended that way.  I could see what was going to happen before the shooting started. Hopefully, they will look into what I said.  Although I probably could have worded it better.
Dale  Just out of curiosity.  What does your name refer too?  Mines obvious.

I use Nosler Partions exclusively. 100 grainers in a 6mm for antelope, 150 for deer in a .270, and 180 or 200 for elk in a .300 Win. They do not fail.

There's a thread on another forum where a guy tested some bullets including the 168. Don't have time to post it yet. I used to be dk99358 (I own a 99 in 358 Win) but had to reregister on this website, needed a new handle so I changed 358 to 300 (Savage)

Merry Christmas All,


Dale

Glad this thread is here since I have a question about which ammo to take for elk. Using a Remington 700 in .300 WinMag and have to choose from between stock off the shelf 180 gr winchester soft points, handloaded Nossler 200 gr accubond sbt or handloaded Barnes 200 gr tipped tsx. All 3 group about the same.

Go with the Barns, I would.

Joe

All three should work just fine out of your 300 win mag.  As far as the barnes goes.  You could actually go. Just like was discussed in an earlier post with a 168 grain.  The reason is.  The barnes tsx doesn't lose much if any weight.  The one your mentioning should blow a nice hole through any elk. My vote would be for the barnes too.  In fact.  Once I run out of my Hornady 190 grain interlocks.  I may get nothing but barnes bullets. One reason.  I can't find them even at Bass Pro shops. dk99300  Did you use to use savage for a screen name at one time too? I seem to remember that one too.
loendorf: I use 130 bullets out my 270 for deer.  In fact, I dropped my speed goat with one shot at 325 yards with that bullet. he just hit the ground as soon as I touched the trigger.  I used the 150 grain for elk.  The new weight that has gotten popular is the 140 grain. They say it can be used for deer and elk.  You can drive the 130 grain a little faster than the with the 150 with less recoil.  And they are devestating on a deer.  I've never had a deer take more than a couple steps after being shot with one.  Until I got my 30-06, and 30-338 magnum.  I started buying 140 grain thinking of a dual purpose for them.  Just a suggestion to reduce the recoil.  Of course, it all depends on what your rifle likes too.  Luckily,  My rifle shoots all of them almost in the same area. 
The only bullets it doesn't like is Sierra bullets for some reason.

If you reload, try the 180 grn. Nosler Partitions. I've had good results with them out of my 30.06 on elk.

My self i prefer all the energy to be transfered to the animal, i dont want a small through n through hole, i prefer a large explosive wond channel, every one is different, my dad swore on pass through heavy constructed bullets, guess thats why he had to track his deer, and i watched mine drop, but every bullet is different, what you are comfortable with, and like you will use

That's the link to the bullet test thread I mentioned earlier.  It's on the 24 hr campfire forum. A guy tested a whole bunch of bullets (including the 168 gr Nosler Ballistic Tip we've been discussing) on cow bones, meat, and wet newspaper. There's pictures and test information. There is also some discussion about Nosler beefing up the Ballistic Tips, there is a picture of the 'old' and 'new' bullets cut in half.

bigrig I've pretty much used dk99358 everywhere since I got on the internet, only reason I changed here was because I got dropped out when they redid the website a few years back. I had to reregister and the system wouldn't let me use the 358 handle, said it was already in use. Go figure.

In case the link doesn' work, it's on the 24 hr campfire forum under the Hunting Rifles subsection.

Dale

Like someone else posted, not all polymer tipped bullets are constructed the same, including the ones that Nosler makes. The earlier (10 yrs ago?) Nosler Ballistic tip bullets had a thin copper jacket and were more prone to "blow up" like the OP described. The current production of Ballistic tip bullets have a thicker jacket and hold together better. Nolser's Accubond (white tip) bullets have a substantially thicker jacket and are advertized to be approximately the equivelant of their long standing Partition bullets. I have used all three on a good variety of North American and/or African game.

The current production 115 gr Nosler Ballistic Tipt at 3000 fps from my .257 Ackley is my current favorite deer and pronghorn antelope bullet. They will usually completely pass through a deer or antelope, and are explosive inside the animal.

I think the Nosler Accubond bullets will penetrate deeper in animals than equivelant weight Ballistic Tips and the 160 grainers are my bullets of choice in my 7mm Rem mag, especially for larger than deer size animals. I have been happy with the performance of these Accubond bullets on Caribou and Muskox in the Canadian Arctic, a variety of South African plains game antelopes, and on Montana Elk. I had one African Professional Hunter, who also owned a 7mm Rem mag, repeatedly commented on the large internal wound channel and effectiveness of these bullets on the animals that I shot with them.

The modern mono metal bullets, like the Barnes TSX, are designed not to come apart like many standard "cup and core" copper and lead bullets do. That's why they say you can use one weight lighter mono bullet and get the same performance as a heavier copper/lead bullet.

For many years, my favorite elk bullet was the 180 gr Nosler Partition at 2990 fps from my .30 Gibbs. I've killed almost twice as many elk (I think 21) with that combination as I have with all other bullets combined. My favorite elk bullet now is the 168 gr Barnes TTSX at 3290 fps from my .300 Weatherby. It is very accurate, gives good penetration, and does not produce as much blood shot meat as the Partitions did.

The Barnes tipped or TTSX are designed to open up at a lower velocity (greater range) than their TSX bullets. The hollow point under the polymer tip is wider than the hollow point of the TSX bullets. Both TSX and TTSX bullets shoot sub moa in my .300 Weatherby, with the TTSX bullets being the most accurate.

dk99300: I looked at it. I didn't have any trouble bringing it up. Interesting. I'll give the link to my nephew to look at.

I have never hunted Elk so I cannot say a whole lot, but I thought .270's are used quiet a bit with a 130 gr bullet on elk with very good results. So would it really matter that much between 168 gr and 180? It seems to me this was more of a shot placement and range problem more than anything, but I may be wrong.

WOW, makes one wonder, how us older folks, that have been hunting for over 60 years, and have shot durn near every type of animal on this hemesphere were able to kill, and not loose any, of the critters we shot!
Allen