Hunting Forum

A few questions from a newbie w/ muzzleloaders (that'd be me, of course).  I just bought a new muzzleloader (CVA Wolf, which fit my budget, and has a nice feel for me).  I'm using Triple-7 Pyrodex pellets and Triple-7 209 primers w/ PowerBelt HP bullets.

1) After reading so many comments about being able to fire again and again without having to do a field cleaning, I thought I would be able to do just that.  So, while checking out the fiber optic sights, I fired two shots (at roughly 20 yards...best distance I could get where I was at the time) and found that at that short range, I hit 5" high and 5" to the left.  So I shot one more round, compensating, and got the same results.  I was then going to move to another area to go back to hunting (I didn't have the option to do the tests prior to spending a good chunk of the day in the field) for real, so I started to reload without putting a primer in until I got to the other spot, a few miles away.  But the Wolf, the bullet, and I were not all working on the same page....  The bullet jammed in the barrel, which apparently was already too dirty.  I left, got home, and managed to get the bullet out (and it's a paperweight now).  The question is, is three shots between cleanings normal with Pyrodex?  Or is there something I missed?

2) After I got it home and got the bullet out, I followed the instructions to do a complete cleaning (firing pin and all).  I also watched the videos on the CVA site, which say to use rust-prevent patches at the last step.  Not having those (I'd never even HEARD of that), I used gun oil on cleaning patches.  Is there a significant difference between the two?  Is a blued ML barrel different than a normal blued rifle barrel, perhaps because of the black powder substitutes?  Or will gun oil work just as well?

3) Given the three target shots, 5" high and 5" to the left, is there a magic formula for how much to adjust the sights?  Or is it pure trial and error until it's right (more like trial, clean, and error!)?

4) Adjusting the fiber optic sights requires one small screwdriver (got that one covered) and one TINY screwdriver.  Where's a good place to find the tiny one?

5) (EDIT) One more question....  How well will me .50 cal CVA Wolf do (assuming a good shot) on a hog?  :-)

I love the feel of this muzzleloader...its smaller size is really comfortable for me, even without my shooting sticks.  I can even see myself taking it sometimes instead of my .270 during general gun season (and during the rut in February, which is what I bought the Wolf for, I'll have to until---hopefully---I'm able to get into archery by next year).

Finally, for those who haven't run into me in other forums here, please excuse any mistakes that look like typos, bad spelling, etc.....  My first cancer did its share of damage before the final chemo killed it (and left me with a nasty case of permanent chemobrain)....  Such errors can be traced back to three brain tumors (I just made, and caught, one of the errors I'm referring to; I was writing "tiumors during my first cancer" and what ended up in type was "dumors .... part of the second word jumped to the first).  Anyways, I don't always see them (one specific tumor, a 2.5 cm diameter tumor in my occipital lobe; btw, 2.5 cm is 0.4 mm, or 400 microns short of 1 inch).  So please be patient and forgiving on stuff like that in those cases where I don't catch/correct it.

Thanks,

   --jim

Normally when I'm hunting or target practicing with my muzzle loaders, I will swab the barrel after every two shots. There is usually a little bit of difference in the impact location between the first shot out of a cold, clean, and lubed barrel then the next shot from a fouled barrel. Primarily I want to know where that very first shot will impact. After every couple shots, run a wet patch down the barrel and then follow it up with a dry patch. The wet patch can be a spit patch, just put the patch in your mouth and chew on it a while to get it wet, it don't have to be soaking. What you experienced was the crud ring that sometimes forms at the top of the pellet column. One of the theories on why this crud forms is that the primer discharging up through the hole in the center of the pellets pushes the bullet off the powder charge causing an air gap to form between the powder and the bullet. The crud ring forms in this air gap. One of the cures to help minimize the crud ring is to use lower powered primers so the bullet stays in contact with the powder. The Triple 7 primers are suppose to be some of the reduced power primers.
You should have been able to remove the breech plug and push the load out of the barrel, without damaging the bullet.
(2)Yes you can use gun oil as a rust preventative. Just be sure to run a couple dry patches through the barrel before the next time you load it, and fire a couple primers before you load to ensure all the oil is out of the breech plug.
(3)There's no magic formula for adjusting the open sights on your rifle. You will need to move your rear sight down and to the right.
(4) Pick up an eye glass repair kit, it has a tiny screwdriver in it. Or use a jewelers screwdriver. Both of these can be purchased from a local grocery store, drug store, Wal-mart, K-Mart, hardware store, etc.
(5) They work well on hogs.

Posted By grandpops on 14 Dec 2012 05:12 AM
Normally when I'm hunting or target practicing with my muzzle loaders, I will swab the barrel after every two shots. There is usually a little bit of difference in the impact location between the first shot out of a cold, clean, and lubed barrel then the next shot from a fouled barrel. Primarily I want to know where that very first shot will impact. After every couple shots, run a wet patch down the barrel and then follow it up with a dry patch. The wet patch can be a spit patch, just put the patch in your mouth and chew on it a while to get it wet, it don't have to be soaking. What you experienced was the crud ring that sometimes forms at the top of the pellet column. One of the theories on why this crud forms is that the primer discharging up through the hole in the center of the pellets pushes the bullet off the powder charge causing an air gap to form between the powder and the bullet. The crud ring forms in this air gap. One of the cures to help minimize the crud ring is to use lower powered primers so the bullet stays in contact with the powder. The Triple 7 primers are suppose to be some of the reduced power primers.
You should have been able to remove the breech plug and push the load out of the barrel, without damaging the bullet.
(2)Yes you can use gun oil as a rust preventative. Just be sure to run a couple dry patches through the barrel before the next time you load it, and fire a couple primers before you load to ensure all the oil is out of the breech plug.
(3)There's no magic formula for adjusting the open sights on your rifle. You will need to move your rear sight down and to the right.
(4) Pick up an eye glass repair kit, it has a tiny screwdriver in it. Or use a jewelers screwdriver. Both of these can be purchased from a local grocery store, drug store, Wal-mart, K-Mart, hardware store, etc.
(5) They work well on hogs.

Thanks for the great info.  Now, a few comments (by the numbers) to the above....

1) The bullet (and one of the two pellets, which got lodged in the back of the bullet) was stuck...hard.  I couldn't push it out on my own, and in the field, just attempthing to do so would have the bore end of the barrel being pushed into the sand (fine beach sand).  Not an option, IMHO, so I took it home.  I STILL couldn't push it through by hand, and ended up VERY LIGHTLY tapping the rod with a small hammer, relying more on the more solid surface (relative to my hands) behind the taps, as oppsed to sheer force.  With repeated light tapping, and the front half of the barrel cleaned and oiled, the bullet easily gave way and could then be pushed out by hand.  Note that by "tapping" I literaly do mean tapping, not banging away at it.  It took two or three taps, and the bullet was freed.

2) I'm curious...why would a light coat of gun oil in the barrel itself be a problem?  Does it cause the crud from the powder to coagulate and become more of an obstruction?

3) Down and to the right?  Based on what I read, and assuming I understood it, to compensate for shooting 5" high and 5" to the left, shouldn't that be up and to the left?

All 5)  Thanks!

--jim

I found in my new inline that I bought that I thought I had thoroughly cleaned the shipping residue but had not got it all out .After shooting 3 rounds the ball jammed and I had to tap it out .The patch had hard residue on it as I shoot balls .After using a heavy solvent I have not had any problems with it .

Now as far as sighting it in .If you shoot to the left move your sight to the right .And just the opposite if you are shooting to the right .If your are shooting high then move the sight down .If shooting low move the sight up . That should do it .You can buy cheap jeweler drives just about any were .That is what I have .

Posted By holly on 14 Dec 2012 01:58 PM
 I found in my new inline that I bought that I thought I had thoroughly cleaned the shipping residue but had not got it all out .After shooting 3 rounds the ball jammed and I had to tap it out .The patch had hard residue on it as I shoot balls .After using a heavy solvent I have not had any problems with it .  

Sounds familiar.....  :-)

Now as far as sighting it in .If you shoot to the left move your sight to the right .And just the opposite if you are shooting to the right .If your are shooting high then move the sight down .If shooting low move the sight up . That should do it.

I must have misread the manual, then (which, given the damage from cancer #1 that I mentioned before, is always a very real possibility), then.  Oh well, I stand corrected.  Thanks.

Yea Holly 's in the know there , I always use gun scrub on a new gun to get their last for ever lube out of them . Trip 7 is different than pyrodex and has more oomph at same load . I use it in powder form with good results . FYI heard some bad reviews on power belts upon retention at impact .
Oh almost foregot the gun oil question ; never expect optimum results out of "any" gun that you shoot with gun oil in the barrel . Clean is the way to go and as mentioned , on the range swabbing (not cleaning) keeps it good enough .
When you do clean it don't forget the brush as just patches and cleaner won't totally clean the lands and grooves of the bore .

A mistake you have not made yet. When I go to the range it seems tat there will be someone there with a stuck ram rode. So before this happen to you remember to work the rod down the barrel back and forth a couple of inches at a time. NEVER push the rod down more than 8" at a time.
When at the range run a wet patch every other shot.
Joe Termite

Posted By JoeTermite on 14 Dec 2012 07:47 PM
 A mistake you have not made yet. When I go to the range it seems tat there will be someone there with a stuck ram rode. So before this happen to you remember to work the rod down the barrel back and forth a couple of inches at a time. NEVER push the rod down more than 8" at a time.  

Stramge....  On the Muzzleloader Basics videos on the CVA site, they say move the ram rod down the barrel in one smooth, continuous motion.  What they don't tell you is when you know it's down as far as it needs to be (they tell you to mark the ram rod at the right point...but what IS this "right point" ???

Posted By GTbrewer on 14 Dec 2012 08:02 PM

Stramge....  On the Muzzleloader Basics videos on the CVA site, they say move the ram rod down the barrel in one smooth, continuous motion.  What they don't tell you is when you know it's down as far as it needs to be (they tell you to mark the ram rod at the right point...but what IS this "right point" ???

I bought a range rod this year.  I used the following procedure.

First, drop the rod down an empty barrel and mark the rod.

Second, load powder and shot and push it down the barrel and mark the rod. 

If you are using a 50 caliber rifle you know the second mark will be 1/2" to 1" lower, depending on the bullet, plus the powder.  If you are using pellets you can measure them and add them to the bullet length to know about where they should be on the ram rod.

-MD

That is when you know that the Bullet or ball is set against the powder or pellets .You will know .

Posted By Mark_D on 14 Dec 2012 09:18 PM

 

I bought a range rod this year.  I used the following procedure.

First, drop the rod down an empty barrel and mark the rod.

Second, load powder and shot and push it down the barrel and mark the rod. 

If you are using a 50 caliber rifle you know the second mark will be 1/2" to 1" lower, depending on the bullet, plus the powder.  If you are using pellets you can measure them and add them to the bullet length to know about where they should be on the ram rod.

-MD

Now I know why I didn't think about that---too obvious.....  Now, let's hope I can find an old paint marker that still works.

Thanks,

   --jim (nasty migraine and all)

Posted By GTbrewer on 14 Dec 2012 08:02 PM

Posted By JoeTermite on 14 Dec 2012 07:47 PM
 A mistake you have not made yet. When I go to the range it seems tat there will be someone there with a stuck ram rode. So before this happen to you remember to work the rod down the barrel back and forth a couple of inches at a time. NEVER push the rod down more than 8" at a time.  

Stramge....  On the Muzzleloader Basics videos on the CVA site, they say move the ram rod down the barrel in one smooth, continuous motion.  What they don't tell you is when you know it's down as far as it needs to be (they tell you to mark the ram rod at the right point...but what IS this "right point" ???

When I got into muzzleloader , I put the ramrod down the barrel and made a small mark on the rod to show the unloaded barrel.and since I was using pellets,I layed them out with the bullet and put them at the unloaded line and made a mark at the bottom of the pellets. I used this as a referance point only. To get my true loading point,I put the pellets and bullet in an pushed it down the clean barrel til it stoped and made my loaded mark on the ramrod,which was close to the mark I had made on the rod before.If you are using loose powder,you can use a speed loader to get a referance point. once you load the gun a few times,you will get the hang of it.
I always swab the barrel out after each shot at the range,to make loading easyer.

 

 

Excess oil residue left in the barrel can degrade your powder charge and will make your first shot impact different than successive shots.

When adjusting your open sights, move the rear sight in the same direction as you want to move your point of impact. If you are shooting high and want to move your point of impact down, then you would move the rear sight down.

As for marking your ram rod, until you determine what your pet load will be, you can wrap a piece of tape around the ram rod as your marker. After you determine what load works best, then use a permanent marker to mark your ram rod.

Posted By grandpops on 15 Dec 2012 06:19 AM
 Excess oil residue left in the barrel can degrade your powder charge and will make your first shot impact different than successive shots.   

Ahhh, ok, that makes sense.  I hadn't thought of that.  I'm still used to "normal" bullets and rifles.

When adjusting your open sights, move the rear sight in the same direction as you want to move your point of impact. If you are shooting high and want to move your point of impact down, then you would move the rear sight down.

And that would be the part I mis-read.....  When you've had a BIG tumor in the part of your brain that processes vision, things like this happen all too often.  What I saw on the page was not what was actually there.  Sometimes I have to re-read things as much as 4 or 5 times (one time, I read a sentence or two at the end of a section of the Android Developers Guide that made absolutely no sense, so I read it again, still made no sense...repeated that about six times before I finally realized I was reading it right after all, and it did NOT make any sense---two sentences had been run-on together, with parts of each removed....one of the things my brain does to me these days).  So thanks to everyone that just told me that and cleared it up for me.

As for marking your ram rod, until you determine what your pet load will be, you can wrap a piece of tape around the ram rod as your marker. After you determine what load works best, then use a permanent marker to mark your ram rod.

Exactly what I did last night.  Except that I didn't need the initial mark.  It was 1mm (I can't recognize inches or parts of inches, but I can "see" 1mm and 1cm distances, and get them right to within a tiny fragment of each) below a mark on the ram rod (where the brass bit jutted out just a bit) with the section that loosens by unscrewing it, and then with a twist, is semi-stable in place (as long as you don't push it back in).  Without that extended, the ram road sinks into the barrel with nothing left to mark.  Then, I put the ram rod up against the two pellets (max on my CVA Wolf, so no worries about adjusting for 3 pellets) and used medical tape to mark the spot (Duck tape seems like it'd be too thick, and its adhesive gets all over everything...not good).

What really confused me at first (and I even asked a CVA tech about this while calling about something else) was the fact that my muzzleloader only kicked about as much as my .22 LR (maybe a slight bit more), where I was expecting it to blast my shoulder right off.  Of course, when the CVA guy remindded me of the difference in powder charge between my Wolf and my .270, it all made perfect sense.  :-)    He also told me this was a very common misconception among new muzzleloader shooters.

Posted By JoeTermite on 14 Dec 2012 07:47 PM
A mistake you have not made yet. When I go to the range it seems tat there will be someone there with a stuck ram rode. So before this happen to you remember to work the rod down the barrel back and forth a couple of inches at a time. NEVER push the rod down more than 8" at a time.
When at the range run a wet patch every other shot.
Joe Termite

Just curious, how would a ram rod get stuck in a barrel?  I have a TC Renagade and have never had that happen, even when pushing the ball straight to the bottom. Thanks

Oh, I also use sabots, is that the difference since there is no patch? 

Patch not wet enough on the range and maybe a tad on the thick side when swabbing or cleaning is one way ; been there and added some moisture down the muzzle for an easy fix . That's with my real BP powder .

Well, I guess I didn't take into thought the cleaning process? I have had issues with the brass cleaning brissles not wanting to come back out easily as they wanted to go in?

i shoot the same powder, primers and bullet as you do from my .50 TC omega.

First GT my heart goes out to you and your battle, I wish you well. GLW a stuck rod is not uncommon, thats why the old timers carried a ramrod puller or a cord to wrap around it. I actually ruined a ramrod once because it was stuck. It sucks when you do it. I cannot express the cussing that happens when it happens. It is really easy to do on a .32 cal. As for the CVA Wolf I think this is a excellent firearm. Another thing you have to get clean is the crud ring which is where most of the carbon build up is. Some guns like a fouled barrel. Yes you need to dry the oil out also before shooting. I would also try different bullets and maybe loose powder. Loose powder lets you tailor the load more, and it may like 70 grains or 80 grains.

Posted By cbrown36 on 21 Dec 2012 03:46 AM
 First GT my heart goes out to you and your battle, I wish you well.  

Just a quick comment....  If you're referring to the wars against the cancers themselves, the one against cancer #1 ended around May 2007, with the SEVERE chemo (Vinblastine, IFEX[1], and Platinol aka Cisplatin).  That particular battle during the war against my first cancer I refer to as a tie, of sorts...it's the one that destroyed that cancer for good, but it did its share of damage to me, as well, including, after each week of chemo (each cycle was one week on, two weeks off, and during the week on chemo, it was high-doses of the chemo drugs for 24 out of 25 hours per day---24 hours on, 1 hour off).  During the first week, of the two days off, every second (literally) was pain so extreme it goes beyond even the worst possible nightmares, and that was before arm/leg muscle spasms every 15--20 seconds made it worse by a factor of 10, and stomach muscle spasms (every 45--90 seconds) by a factor of 100.  And if either one hit while the other was still in effect, they added up and made the base-level pain 1000 times worse.  No, I'm not kidding.  The second week "off" I had to spend in the hospital under strict rules, because the chemo had dropped my neutrofil (it's a type of white blood cell that fights infection) count to near zero---about 1/100th of its minimum level).  I could not have any fresh fruit or veges, and even canned fruit was considered too dangerous.  All meats had to be so fully cooked they were nearly burned.  Absolutely no more than two people were allowed in my room at any time (including nurses and doctors), and everyone in my room except for me had to wear gloves and a mask.  If I left my room, I had to wear the gloves/mask.  Oh, and during the first three cycles of chemo, my doctors had listened to someone else's lies (those of the egotistical piece of s*** who used to be my dad), claiming during my first chemo that I was lying about the pain because I wanted more pain meds, and that I was abusing them (I only took them about half as often as prescribed, and then only if I really, really needed to ... but his ego had to make me look bad; he also claimed that I was lying about being sick and in pain, and was just to "lazy" to work on the farm---something I know exactly nothing about---after coming home from 6--8 hours of chemo....later, after three severe brain surgeries, where I was 100% guaranteed to be in a coma for at LEAST a month, but, since nobody bothered to tell me, I just went ahead and woke up the same day, the next day he crapped out of his mouth again, spewing, "I don't ever want to see you, speak to you, or hear from you again!" and stormed out of my hospital room) ... anyways, later, during that last chemo, the doctors listened to his lies instead of me telling the truth about the pain, and only gave me Percocet, which was about as effective against the pain as one firefighter with a shot glass of water throwing it on a multi-state wildfire and pronouncing the job complete.  The fourth cycle, my mom was in town, and was not about to put up with any of that.  Long story short, we went straight to the ER, where, after a brief bit of demoral (bad side effects, including seizures, which my docs said, correctly, that the LAST thing I need was more seizures), they put me on straight morphine, into my port (an IV access that feeds directly into the Superior Vena Cava, which then feeds directly into the heart) for the entire time (except once, when the hospital pharmacy got behind).

Well, I suppose that quick comment wasn't so quick...sorry 'bout that.   As for cancer #2, it was Stage I, so it was just a big surgery, a huge scar on my belly, and a lot of Dilaudid for the first 4--5 days after the surgery.......

What I'm dealing with now is mostly just the permanent aftermath from cancer #1 (and, of course, the endless series of doctor visits, including my oncologists, my primary care doc, GI docs and regular colon screening---that's from cancer #2, and now, after increasing problems from nerve damage caused by the chemo---mostly that last one, a neurologist again, once my pc doc gets in touch with one, and they then get in touch with me ... and of course, the endless medical bills that I can't afford that pile on higher and higher every month---I used to have a donation link on my jdgapps.com site, but I gave up on it...with the economy so bad, everyone's in deep s*** financially right now).

Oh well, time to go make my coffee, feed my two monsters (Tux and Tiggerbelle) before they decide I'm their food, and then get my own breakfast....

Later,

   --jim

[1] plus MESNA ... IFEX alone will destroy the kidneys---MESNA blocks it from doing so.