Hunting Forum

I have been trying to get the promised velocities for 450 Marlin using Barnes TSX/FN bullets.  I have loaded 300 grain TSX/FN bullets using H4198 powder as recommended by CARTRIDGES OF THE WORLD (12th edition) which they report Barnes as the source.  I use a Marlin 1895M rifle which has a short barrel.  My velocities are far below the printed estimates.  Fair enough, I use a short barrel.  However, even though I shot over a chrony using increments of 1 full grain, no load I tested over a 5 grain span had any increase in velocity, and all were several hundred fps below Hornady ammunition using 350 grain bullets.  To me this indicates that the powder is too slow and any additional powder is simply burning outside the barrel.

Does anyone have advice?

How do the shots group? In a couple of instances I own more than one gun in the same caliber and each has its own pet load. When shooting the same load in the different guns I also get different measured velocities. Even using the rules of thumb to correct for differences in barrel length (100 fps per inch) when the barrels are different lengths. In my .338 I have noticed the velocity plateauing as I increase the powder charge for a given bullet, but never in 1 gr increments. As I am looking for the most accurate load I can get, I am more worried about group size than velocity. I have never found that velocity differences between the low end and top end of a given powder/bullet combination make any difference at the ranges I shoot at (325 yds or less).

Back to your question, if the groups stink, the bullet may not be sealing in the barrel. If that were the case, I would expect that you could see signs of erosion in the barrel from the hot gasses passing between the bullet and the barrel. Just a thought but probably wrong.

jack

Did you check your chronograph against a known load that day? Are you crimping the rounds? Have you tried other sources of data (Hodgdon, Barnes, Ramshot, and Alliant all have data on line) I take it the Hornady ammo was factory? Factories have access to powders that handloaders don't have, sometimes you can't duplicate things.

Dale

The point of developing the 450 Marlin in the first place was to duplicate the top end of handloading the 45-70. The loads I test fired using H4198 ranged from 47.0 grains to 50.0 grains and all of them chronied THE SAME VELOCITY and it was well below the Hornady factory ammo which was pushing a bullet 50 grains heavier. Obviously something is not working here, but it is not the chrony. I also tested loads for several other calibers that day and they all recorded velocities consistant with my earlier tests.
In answer to jboshoven's question there was no group to measure. I tested a single round of each charge. I had no interest in trying to get a good group yet because I was just trying to find the normal velocity the 450 was supposed to produce. It never even got to the lowest velocity on the charts even though I was using a lighter bullet.
Barnes for some reason has published data (in Manual #4) which reproduces the low end of the 45-70 - not what the 450 was supposed to be about. But Cartridges of the World printed data they said came from Barnes which was supposed to achieve 2493 fps. I got slightly over 2000. I don't have my notes with me but I think the factory ammo shooting 350 grain bullets chronied at 2300-2400.
Again, the only explaination I have been able to come up with is that the bullet is leaving the barrel before the powder is completely burned.
Does anybody have test data on this?

Dig a little digging, found the following.

Barnes website lists the 300 gr TSX FN with 45 grains of H4198 @ 2087 and 49 grains @ 2268.

Hodgdon online uses a 300 gr Nosler partition with 48 grs of H4198 @ 2116 and 53 gr @ 2321. They also list the Hornady 350 and max velocity there is 2119 with 48.5 grs of H4198.

My Hornady handbook lists top velocity for the 300 gr bullet @2200 fps and for the 350 @ 2000 fps.

The Hornady Handbook has a disclaimer, their data does NOT reach advertised velocity, the advertised velocity is from a 24 inch barrel, the reload data is from an 18.5 incher. The data on the Barnes website is also from a 24 inch barrel.

Also note that I would not use the charge weights for the Nosler partition with the Barnes bullet, they are very different critters. I included it for comparison.

Shooting one round gives you nothing reliable, I've seen shot to shot variation at 60 fps or more.

As to no velocity increase, are you crimping them? That makes a big difference in the 44 Mag and certain powders, I could see it happening in the 450 too.

So I think your problems lie in not enough data for accurate readins and the shorter barrel. Best bet might be to go back to the store and buy every box of the ammo that you think gave 2300-2400

Dale

I repeat: Cartridges of the World printed a velocity of 2493 fps. Whether this is achievable or not is actually irrelevant. The fact remains that Hornady ammunition using 350 grain bullets shot several hundred fps faster than these loads pushing 300 grain Barnes TSX/FN (why?), and that the loads with Barnes 300s gained no significant velocity - even developing lower velocity once - even though the loads were 47.0, 48.0, 49.0 and 50.0 grains. I am not crimping, or if the COL results in crimping it is so slight as not to be visible.
So why does an increase of 3.0 grains of powder result in no significant gain in velocity? That is my main question. I have offered a possible answer, but you seem to have ignored it, choosing instead to be insulting.
And I have no interest in loading Noslers, so don't worry about that.

A separate question is why the bullet manufacturers would test using 24 inch barrels when the caliber was designed for use in a carbine.

I believe that ya have answered your own question Frozen Dog. In developeing loads for my .45-70, I have ran into powders, that regardless of increase in loads, will not exceed the velocity of lower charges. Obviously, the charges that I am useing, are the max, that my barrel length will adequatly and effeiciantly  burn!
Eventho I do have quite a library in reloading manuals(total of 27), my go to manual is the Lyman. The reason being, No body has more experience with reloading manuals then Lyman! They have been selling reloading tools(under the name of Ideal) and manuals, since the advent of the metalic cartridge! Well, since 1878 anyhow.
Thier max. load with 4198, pushing a 300 gr. bullet is 49.5 gr., with a velocity of 2260 fps, thru a 24 in. barrel, sooo, your load of 47 gr. is were it should be, thru your 18 inch barrel
Why do you think that the .450 was developed for a carbine?? Yes the carbine/guide gun, are more popular then the XLR, does not detract from the fact that they also made the gun in a longer barrel!
Ya have a tube type magazine there Frozen Dog!! If ya expect to hold a consistant OAL, ya durn well better becrimpin'(IMO)! Ya will also find that by crimping, you will also bring your velocity up a smidgon.
Allen

One other thing Frozen Dog, don't be so durn thin skinned. I don't see that any of the post are implicateing anything that can be considered insulant! We have a durn good bunch of guys on this forum, that are only trying to be helpful! We all have opinions, and just because we express'um, doesn't mean that we are insulting you!
Allen

Dale said, "go back to the store and buy every box of the ammo that you think gave 2300-2400." I measured it. It is not a case of just "thinking" it.

And the whole point is that if Hornady produces a load with a 350 grain bullet does it not make sense that shooting a 300 grain bullet you should at least be able to equal the Hornady's velocity?

The phrase 'think gave 2300-2400' came from your own words in your second post.

I don't have my notes with me but I think the factory ammo shooting 350 grain bullets chronied at 2300-2400.

With the 44 Mag and Win 296 powder, you need a heavy crimp. It holds the bullet in place longer and lets the pressure build some before the bullet starts to move. The powder burns more efficiently that way. 450 Marlin is just a bigger version of the 44 Mag. So that's why I kept asking about crimping which you finally answered. You could be right about the powder going out the barrel but in this case a crimp may cause it all to burn in the barrel.

Lots of velocity numbers have been written over the years, doesn't mean you're going to get it in your rifle. Alliant lists over 3000 fps with Reloder 17 and 150 gr bullets in the 30-06. Mine topped out at about 2850. I'm moving on to another powder, no big deal. Plus you're actually comparing apples to oranges. Barnes bullets may weigh the same as a cup-n-core but they ain't the same.

So as I see it, the options are: A) try crimping and see what happens. B) try another powder. C) try the Hornady 300 grain bullet. D) buy the factory ammo

Dale

Dale, I looked at my post, and you are right. I have been under a lot of stress recently and I guess I took it out on you. That is a reason, not an excuse. I have no excuse.

I apologize.

As for crimping, if you look at Hornady ammo the crimp is not visible, at least to my eyes. I was trying to duplicate that. I may not have succeeded. I can try again, but not for a while. I loaned my 450 to my hunting partner and he is out at moose camp right now. Using Hornady factory rounds.

I just want to be able to load my own and duplicate top end 45-70 ammo. Does anyone have any data using a faster powder? I could just start from zero trying faster and faster powders, but I was hoping someone either had already done that or maybe had Quickload or some other program that might give me some place to start. I have looked for programs in local stores, but none of them have any.

Here are some other loads.

http://reloadersnest.com/frontpage....iberID=196

 

TGJ, thanks. Unfortunately all the loads I looked at are fired from a 24 inch barrel which means the data is highly questionable for my 18.5" Marlin.

I guess I'll keep trying to invent a load.
Or give up and only shoot factories.

No harm, no foul. Forget it.

Factory crimps are often different, especially from the roll crimp most commonly used by reloaders. For crimping, I pretty much follow the die makers instructions for adjustment. If you roll crimp too hard, the cases won't chamber so I hit that point, then back off until they do.

I'm not sure what velocity you are actually trying to reach and I don't see where you listed the velocity you did get with the Barnes/4198 combo. Looks to me like the Lever Action loads for the 45-70 are about 2000-2100 fps. Are you getting that with your 450 loads?

Dale

YUPP, thats what I did, pretty well invented my own loads. As far as the Hornaday ammo, Hornaday has developed a powder, that develops heigher velocity with lower pressures. I have been told that this powder is available to the public, but, sure won't find any out on this rock!
Allen

That would explain why 350 grain Hornady loads are faster than the Barnes 300s with H 4198. Those are around 2000 fps. I would still like to duplicate the Hornady velocity especially since some published data promises 2500 fps - from a 24 inch barrel.

Just looked out the window. Mixed rain and snow. This is the weather I bought my 450 for and why I put a peep sight on it - quiet walking in the bush and no worries about foggy optics. But the rifle went to moose camp without me and my best friend is probably in the bush right now carrying it. Sure hope he gets something.

FrozenD, I think you are working against a couple of unrealistic expectations. First, it is typical for manufacturers to initially use longer test barrels when introducing product lines and there is no requirement for them to tell anyone. Its like using one engine for the qualifying run but a different one for the race. All the early Barnes data is "optimistic" because of this. More recent data tones things down a bit. COTW data needs to be take with a sizable grain of salt because it includes data which may be many decades old and downright dangerous to use if you don't go back and study the original sources (Ackley in particular who typically used 28" barrels). If we assume the early velocity for the 350 gr bullet was from a 26" barrel, then 30 fps per inch loss (typical for the 2000-2500 fps range) plus another 50-100 fps for the porting in the barrel means your best possible velocity would be about 300-350 fps below what was published.
dk99300 makes an important point: single chronograph readings are nearly meaningless. It take 8 readings to achieve only a 90% confidence level.
With the fast rifle powders used in this high expansion volume-ratio caliber, all the powder has be converted to gas before the bullet is 6" down the barrel. It is the expanding gas which accelerates the bullet, not the ongoing combustion of the powder, though this is less true with very slow powders and low expansion-ratio cartridges.
Based on my experience with a few +P 45-70's, 458x2" (the direct parent of the 450 Marlin), 450 Alaskan, 458Win, and 11.2x60 Schuler (an rimless, +P version of the 11mm Mauser), I'd say a reasonable target velocity using H or IMR 4198 for your 450 Marlin would be 2150 for a 300gr bullet and 2000 for a 350 g.
Still a very potent moose-pacifying tool. Good hunting!