tsnake
Posts:60
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| 25 May 2012 09:02 AM |
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So how did everyone do in the Elk draw. I was unsuccessful and will be hunting archery either sex this year. How about the rest of you?  |
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| Hunt hard, hunt lucky and live life Huge! |
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L E Hunter
Posts:11
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| 26 May 2012 08:39 PM |
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I did't draw deer at all, did get 2nd choice cow elk for unit 41, and DID draw bear for unit 61.
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| NAHC Life Member since '97 |
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flags
Posts:91
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| 27 May 2012 06:06 AM |
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Nothing at all for me. I was hoping my dream tag (either sex in Unit 2) would come through this year. But I seem to still be a little short on points. Post draw I have 18 points for elk, 12 points for deer, 11 points for bear, 7 points for pronghorn, 3+10 weighted points for sheep, 3+10 weighted points for moose, 3 points for goat and 11 points for turkey. I don't really care if I ever draw another goat tag since I've already bagged one of those, but sure would like to eventually draw the others. I really thought the elk tag would come through this year. But, it is what it is.
I'm still waiting to hear about the WY antelope draw. I should get 2 doe tags there. I'm also waiting for the NH moose draw. That one is a long shot. Non-residents only have a 1 in 67 chance of ever pulling it, but if you don't apply you have 0 chance. I'll do a lot of whitetail hunting in VA. I'm stationed there active duty and can hunt for resident costs. Huge number of deer in VA so I'll put at least 2 does in the freezer for meat.
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 28 May 2012 08:40 PM |
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After 17 years I finally drew a bull moose tag (Unit 6 Muzzleloader). Ironically I also drew a second choice muzzleloader cow elk tag for unit 6, but since I will be concentrating on filling my moose tag I doupt I would even take an elk if I had the chance. I also got a second choice 3rd rifle buck deer tag for 9/19/191, and I should get 2 doe antelope tags for unit 48 Wyoming. I thought had a good chance to draw a nanny-only goat tag this year with 3+2, but that didn't happen. Since the moose and antelope hunts will be in September and the deer won't be until November, I just might pick up an OTC bull elk tag for second season just to have something to do in October. |
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tsnake
Posts:60
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| 01 Jun 2012 07:35 AM |
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Hi guys. Thanks for the postings. Flaggs, sorry to hear about you not getting the tag for unit 2. With that many points it can only be another year or two and you'll be up there to try to hook up with a big one. Still in Virginia huh. How close to retirement are you getting? I'm hoping it's an omen for me that I didn't draw my muzzle loader tag this year. I picked up a bow back in December thinking I could start playing with the thought of hunting with one. Now it will still put me up the hill in September. I've gotten Elk with a rifle and muzzle loader, now I'll try for the trifecta.
L E Hunter, good luck on getting your cow and bear tags filled. Better luck next year for your deer tag.
Orion, Congrats on your Moose tag. Good luck up there. It will certainly be different this season than last with the lack of moisture. Last year I was in unit 16, and saw Moose at 9500' with all the standing water. First time I'd ever seen them that high. Too bad its not like a Elk tag and open for the other areas like 16, 161 and the others. Sounds like you'll be pretty busy this fall.
Final thought for know is that we can all hope that wild fires don't change our plans. Seems the Governor should ban all open fires, period. Those with camp stoves should be better educated!!!! Cross your collective fingers. |
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wbrenner1
Posts:28
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| 02 Jun 2012 09:24 PM |
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Me and my brother Drew Bull Elk and Buck Mule deer tags for Colorado Unit 66 But believe it or not me and my son Tom got turned down for Whitetail Deer tags in Illinois that did not make me happy. last 2 years i hunted private land I leased in southern Illinois but the land owner gifted the property and house to her daughter so we have no place to stay down there before that we got turned down for deer tags 6 years straight in our state that's just wrong. too many people and not enough land up in northern Illinois. |
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tsnake
Posts:60
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| 04 Jun 2012 08:02 AM |
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Congrats on you and your brother drawing Elk and Mully tags. I think that back east the draw is more for the lucky for just the reason you suggested. Its too bad as I understand that the deer population really needs to be better controlled in a lot of the corn belt states. |
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wbrenner1
Posts:28
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| 04 Jun 2012 10:13 PM |
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Tsnake in Illinois it is all luck if you hunt public land you do not get points for applying or preference for not drawing a tag the year before. What drives me nuts is to drive by literally 50 to 100 Deer in a field that we cannot hunt to go to public land that is over hunted. Then watch our state close that forest preserve that we cannot hunt and let snipers cull the herd at $100.00 a head instead of letting hunters do this for free. The state did open up a forum to discuss letting hunters cull the heard for about 3 months then let us know they would hire snipers again. Because of all the Deer and car accidents. Makes sense doesn't it.
then
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jeng
Posts:8
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| 06 Jun 2012 01:13 PM |
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Flags,
I feel really bad, but I somehow drew the hybrid tag in Area 2. It came as such a surprise, I am now scrambling to figure out where to hunt. I have been up there the last few years with late season cow tags and as a observer on my buddies muley hunt, but other than seeing giant bulls and saying "holy crap, that is a monster!" a couple times a day, I didn't think I was going to be able to hunt them up there for another couple decades. Any thoughts you have on the bulls up there would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks |
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tsnake
Posts:60
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| 07 Jun 2012 08:09 AM |
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Yah. I grew up in Ohio. They and Michigan are having the same problems I believe. The states in the upper midwest have the highest numbers of deer hit by vehicles yet have the most stringent hunting regs preventing hunters from hepling the situation. We have the same problem with elk in the Rocky Mountain National Forest. The area is closed for hunting. It is great for folks that have never seen elk and they can get up close. Due to the no hunting, the numbers have grown to exceed the available food sources. Rather than open it to resident hunters to thin the herd, they to highered sharpshooters to thin the numbers. Not sure about Illinios but the dept.of parks and wildlife is stricktly funded by hunters and fishermen. How much more money would they get by selling limited licenses for this as apposed to paying to have it done. HMMM. All any of us can do is to keep up the pressure on the powers that be to finally come to there senses! |
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flags
Posts:91
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| 09 Jun 2012 08:48 AM |
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Posted By jeng on 06 Jun 2012 02:13 PM
Flags,
I feel really bad, but I somehow drew the hybrid tag in Area 2. It came as such a surprise, I am now scrambling to figure out where to hunt. I have been up there the last few years with late season cow tags and as a observer on my buddies muley hunt, but other than seeing giant bulls and saying "holy crap, that is a monster!" a couple times a day, I didn't think I was going to be able to hunt them up there for another couple decades. Any thoughts you have on the bulls up there would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Sorry, but I am going to decline providing any info on where to hunt in Unit 2. Nothing personal mind you, but I have been trying to get that tag for nearly 2 decades and I have a real issue with the whole hybrid tag thing. The fact that you pulled the tag means hunters like me who have played the whole draw thing for a long, long time didn't get the tag while someone like you who has only played for a short time got it. To me, there is a huge amount of unfairness for that. When they first started the hybrid thing, I called the DOW and got in touch with the guy that came up with the idea. When I put him on the spot and demanded his line of thinking, he basically told me it was in response to complaints from the transplants from Califorina. Seems they didn't like the fact that some tags would take them so long to draw and they pitched a{1}***** to change the system. Typical California behavior. Whine and cry until they get their way instead of accepting a state the way it is. I'll continue to play the game by the original rules and when I get the tag for Unit 2, I will go to the places I've been scouting for 20 years and tag out on a big bull. Until then, I will keep the info to myself. After all, I'm a 5th generation native on my Caucasion side and go back thousands of years on my Arapahoe side. I figure I have earned that right. |
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jeng
Posts:8
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| 10 Jun 2012 05:46 PM |
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Flags,
No problem. I totally understand where you are coming from. To let you know though, I have been hunting deer in area 2 since I was 14 (now 34) and cows in area 2 the last six years. I've been a Colorado resident that entire time.
We started hunting up there before it took any preference points to draw a deer tag. I never really gave trophy elk hunting much thought because of the massive amounts of points it took to draw the really great areas. I would always burn my point on a Dec cow tag in area 3 just for the meat, so never really built up points until we started filling our cow tags in area 2. Then with the advent of the "hybrid" tag, it gave me some incentive to put in and save my points. I'm not sure why the DOW created it, but I for one (even before I drew it) was excited about having a "punchers" chance to draw one of the most coveted tags in Colorado.
I've seen the bulls and know quite a few places. We have seen them for years up at Lookout Mt. I kicked a monster out at the mouth of Douglas Mt. last Oct. I've talked to the guys at Powderwash about deer and they have showed me pics and gave places with bulls as well.
I understand that you are a bit pissed at having to wait all these years and still not drawing that tag, and again I understand. Just thought you might throw out a few tidbits gleaned from your experience.
Good luck next year!
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tsnake
Posts:60
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| 11 Jun 2012 09:00 AM |
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I'll way in on this just to say that you both have valid points and I to have something to through in on the subject of the draw. I will be very interested to see the actual draw numbers when they become available. Right now it may be that I am disapointed that I didn't get my draw this year in an area that, as a resident took one point to ensure the tag and faling to get this year. I have had problems with the way they conduct the draw and yes this hybrid deal is one of those points. I really have problems too with how they have been conducting the thinning of the herd in Rocky Mountain National Park. Now the DOW and Parks is putting up comercials that are telling people that they have hunter and anglers to thank, that others can enjoy the public lands. While this is true, The money that they are spending on this advertising and the advertising that they are doing to bring in more out of state hunters, coupled with the fact that they have chosen to pay, so called sharp shooters, to thin the heard in RMNP is figuring in on how they are operating the draw. What good can be done with all of that money seems to be lost on the powers that be. There are no cost ways to do the advertising and they could run a draw for Colorado natives to thin the heard. With that relief in money going out, they could fairly run the draw.
Sorry. Got a bit wordy, but somewhere along the line, if people are not voicing thier opinions nothing will change. Just as with the government, if you just blindly stand by and bi@#& about the problem, without actively putting your compaints up in the right forums, you fail to help make changes. I actively correspond with the DOW/Parks because public opinion must be heard and have affect on future decisions. Just as those California transplants managed to get the hybrid draw instituted, those that oppose it do not voice thier opinion in the correct forum, no good will come of it.
Wow Huh? |
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jeng
Posts:8
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| 11 Jun 2012 01:33 PM |
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There really needs to be a forum for gathering hunters together to influence the decisions made by the DOW. There are lobby groups for everything anymore. There should be a Colorado specific group for sportsman as well.
The RMNP herd thinning is them telling us that they don't trust "regular" hunters with the management of the herd or to not tear up RMNP. All of the issues that we have with the DOW seems to me to boil down to elitism. They know better than us and we are just all "redneck" crazies that can't be trusted, but are necessary to keep the coffers full.
The only way I can see change happening is to make a big enough stink. Every governmental agency hates bad press. And as my Grandpa always told me "the squeaky wheel gets the grease."
As for the "hybrid" tag, I didn't even realize that out-of-state hunters could put in for that tag. I thought it was only for residents. I guess that changes my thoughts on it a bit. It should be only available for residents. |
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flags
Posts:91
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| 13 Jun 2012 02:10 PM |
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Posted By jeng on 11 Jun 2012 02:33 PM
As for the "hybrid" tag, I didn't even realize that out-of-state hunters could put in for that tag. I thought it was only for residents. I guess that changes my thoughts on it a bit. It should be only available for residents.
The problem is that lots of people moved here and found out that the "premium" tags would take them 20+ years to pull as residents. So they began to complain that it wasn't fair to them since they would be so far behind those of us that have already invested so much time in drawing. With point creep, if someone begins applying right now with zero points it will probably be 30-35 years before they can draw. So, the transplants from the Land of the Looney cried loud enough that the state implemented the hybrid draw so that after only 6 years they would have the chance to draw. Granted the odds aren't great but they do bear fruit. You are proof of that. But remember when you are hunting unit 2 this fall, someone with 18-20 years worth of points isn't simply because the state gave you the tag instead. Personally I don't believe it is right to allow someone with that many years invested to not hunt so that others can. Using myself as an example, I played the game by the rules the DOW put down. I don't think anyone ever believed that some of the tags would take 20 years to draw. That situation just came about. But I played according to the rules and now they have changed the rules on me. I'll be 50 years old on my next birthday so undertaking serious elk hunts will be harder and harder every year. When I first began hunting big game in Colorado at the legal age of 14, there were no preference points. You applied for tags for cows/does or special tags. Bucks and bulls for the most part were over the counter. Antelope tags could be drawn every other year. As soon as it became obvious that points had become vital to getting the "premium" tags, people like me began to accumulate them. Now, after nearly 2 decades, the state rewards us by cutting the numbers available to us so that someone who has only applied a short time can get the tag. Sorry but I have to hoist the B.S. flag on that. If I had my way about it, all the bull tags for the premium units (1,2,10,201,211 etc...) would be reserved for residents only and issued to those with the most points. Let them be the reward for paying taxes here and for having the patience to wait the draw out. I'd also reserve all bull moose, bighorn rams and mountain goats for residents. To offset the loss of license revenue you could price them at $400 apiece for elk and $750 apiece for the other 3. They would still sell everyone of them and have more money in the pot after the drawing. After all they usually issue around 40 bull tags (actually they are either sex but nobody is going to burn that many points for a cow) for unit 2. Right now the resident tags are less than $50. Sell all 40 for $400 each and you just pulled in $160,000 in license fees for that single unit off the bull tags alone. And remember that doesn't take into consideration the amount the cow tags would bring. |
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flags
Posts:91
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| 14 Jun 2012 05:11 AM |
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For everyone's info, the below is straight out of the Regs. Note that non-residents can participate in the hybrid drawing. Which means that someone sitting in Los Angeles with a whopping 5 preference points can draw one of the most highly desired tags in the entire state while a resident with 20 preference points gets the shaft.
HYBRID DRAWING
In an eff ort to expand quality opportunities to big-game hunters,the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission has established a “hybrid” drawing for select elk,deer, pronghorn and bear licenses for the 2012 hunting seasons. The purpose of the drawing is to give hunters additional opportunity to draw a license for some of the state’s premier deer, elk, pronghorn and bear hunting areas. Hunters who normallywould not have enough preference points to draw these licenses now have a slight chance to draw a small number of the most coveted licenses through this process. Nonresident caps apply. (Units with low numbers of available licenses may not have any remaining for the Hybrid Drawing.)
HUNTER QUALIFICATIONS
1. Hunters must have a minimum of five preference points for the species they wish to hunt to participate in the Hybrid Drawing.
2. Hunters must apply individually (group applications are not accepted).
3. Hunt codes that contain a W1 or W2 are Ranching for Wildlife properties. These hunts are for
Colorado residents only.
HOW IT WORKS
In hunt codes that require 10 or more resident preference points to draw (based on a three-year average ending with the 2009 drawing), 20 percent of the available licenses will be issued through a random drawing.
Qualified resident and nonresident hunters who select applicable hunt codes (listed below) and have at least five preference points for that species will automatically enter the Hybrid Drawing.
» These hunt codes must be entered as your first choice on your application.
» Winning applicants in the Hybrid Drawing will be selected randomly.
» Hunters who successfully draw a license in the Hybrid Drawing will lose all of their preference points for that species.
Unsuccessful applicants will be awarded one point |
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tsnake
Posts:60
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| 15 Jun 2012 08:13 AM |
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I have not been ignoring everyone this week. Been real busy. This is turning into just the kind of discussion that needs to take place. I have been trying to come up with a plan and am waiting to hear back from a couple of people. This needs to get to the right people who can do some good with it. Stay tuned and keep those comments coming. |
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tsnake
Posts:60
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| 15 Jun 2012 01:31 PM |
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OK guys, here is the straight poop. I was about a year ahead on my guess for the DOW ( now Div. Parks and Wildlife) to start thinking about the rule changes for the next five year stint. They set the current regs in 2010. Towards the end of the year in 2013 the will announce a way for the public to input opinions on regulation changes. Randy from DOW was kind enough to send along a site that you all can make comments to now. My feeling is that until it gets closer to them really opening up for opinions, that anything voiced before hand would stand a good chance of getting lost. I will keep my eyes open next fall for thier forum information and list it in our forum as soon as it is available. This does not mean that we can't keep talking about it and maybe get together and develop a statement and try to get club backing. Fat chance but its just a thought. Here is the statement that randy sent me. I will include his e-mail address at the end.
We completed our last five-year season structure process in 2010. Thatprocess set the regulations that are currently in place. As you mention,it won't be long before we begin the process of examining regulationsfor potential changes. At the present time, we anticipate starting thepublic input process sometime late next year (2013). At that time, we'llbe able to provide you the appropriate methods for the public to provideinput.In the meantime, anyone who has comments about specific regulations cansend those comments or suggestions to my office (email and mailingaddress below) and I can pass them along or they can send the commentsto the Colorado Parks and Wildlife Commission through the Commissionwebpage athttp://wildlife.state.co.us/ParksWi...ission.aspx. There is a "contact the Commission" button at the bottom of the pageto get folks started. His e-mail address is: Randy.Hampton@state.co.us I also have become friendly with a couple biologists that I will get info from next fall and share thier opinions with you. I will also talk to them just before Elk season starts this year and will pass along anything that might help you all this season.
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 15 Jun 2012 09:06 PM |
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In my opinion the biggest problem I see with the future of big game hunting in CO is the issue with big game on private land and the fact that the state has not done much to improve public access (RFW and the Walk-in program are a start, but CO is still way behind what other states have done). I do agree that the point creep issue is coming to a head and needs to be fixed as well, but raising the price 10X is not the answer. Hunting in this state has already become a rich man's sport, so jacking up the price to weed out us poor folk is not fair either. I'm hate to say this, but I think the only answer is to have all species (or at least the most competetive tags) go to the weighted preference point system, just like sheep, goat, and moose. It would be the easiest fix to just convert everyones points to weighted points. Yes, those who have been playing the game for the longest would feel the most pain. But those people with the most points would still have a higher statistical advantage over everyone else who has lesser points, and at the same time everyone else with lesser points still have a chance to get lucky and draw a tag. I think it's the only win-win situation, so do not be surprised if it eventually ends up that way. |
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flags
Posts:91
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| 16 Jun 2012 06:41 AM |
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Posted By Orion/CO on 15 Jun 2012 10:06 PM
In my opinion the biggest problem I see with the future of big game hunting in CO is the issue with big game on private land and the fact that the state has not done much to improve public access (RFW and the Walk-in program are a start, but CO is still way behind what other states have done). I do agree that the point creep issue is coming to a head and needs to be fixed as well, but raising the price 10X is not the answer. Hunting in this state has already become a rich man's sport, so jacking up the price to weed out us poor folk is not fair either. I'm hate to say this, but I think the only answer is to have all species (or at least the most competetive tags) go to the weighted preference point system, just like sheep, goat, and moose. It would be the easiest fix to just convert everyones points to weighted points. Yes, those who have been playing the game for the longest would feel the most pain. But those people with the most points would still have a higher statistical advantage over everyone else who has lesser points, and at the same time everyone else with lesser points still have a chance to get lucky and draw a tag. I think it's the only win-win situation, so do not be surprised if it eventually ends up that way.
Point creep is a major problem on that I agree but I don't agree with simply going to the weighted system. I fully admit I'm biased but like I have already said, I've been playing the game for a lot of years and would be extrememly upset to see all those years of effort and patience be tossed aside in favor of people just entering the drawing game. Problem is, I really don't have a solution other that stop issuing any points for a few years to stop the creep and let those of us with the large numbers of points draw out and get out of the way of the rest of you. That sounds bad, but since we are holding the rest of you up anyways, it isn't too far of a stretch. As long as I have 18 points and you don't, you will never get a tag if I decide to put in for it. But give me the tag I've been trying to get and I am no longer a factor because I go back to zero and can not build anymore points. No point build-up for about 8 years would solve it, but I don't see that plan being adopted. The transplants from the Land of Fruits, Flakes and Nuts would never buy off on it. I also agree that getting more access to private property is vital. However, since landowners with good habitat stand to make so much off of leasing rights, I'm not sure the DOW can do much about it. And it must be noted that outfitters have a lot of power over how the DOW lays down regulations. Make no mistake about it, the economic interest of the outfitters is put in front of the needs and desires of the average hunter. When in doubt, follow the money. Hunting is now a big business for many people. I don't like it. But that is the reality of the situation. But I do think you misunderstand one point I made. I do not advocate raising all fees 10X, only those that are considered premium tags. By that I mean those very few special tags for bull elk, the bull moose tags, the bighorn ram tags and the goat tags. In order to reserve them for residents only, you would have to raise the fees. Non-residents pay a much higher price (as they should) so if you eliminated them from being eligible for the tags, you would have to off set it. But I would not want to see the average bull/buck or cow/doe tag increased by that same amount. Lets face it, the guys actively trying for the premium tags are not your average meat hunter. On a side note, my math above was off. I added an extra zero. The amount that could be made off of 40 tags at $400 apiece is $16,000. I must disagree with the continual cry that hunting this state is becoming a "rich man's" sport. A resident can plunk down less than $50 and get an elk tag every year. There are very, very few other places in this country where that holds true. Plus, the state has a huge amount of public land to hunt for free. If one chooses to add additional expense for guides or leases that is their choice but not required by law. Once you have the initial gear purchased (which is an expense no matter what the sport is) hunting elk or deer in this state only costs the price of the tag and the fuel to get to the hills. I've hunted this state my entire life and have personally shot 25 elk. Not one of them came from leased land or were guided. I seriously doubt my entire family will have $1000 wrapped up in elk hunting this fall. And for those that hunt in my family, they will probably take at least 4 elk if the year's success follows our historical average. That is not expensive hunting. If you want to see expensive hunting, look at what it costs in other states. Besides, truly "poor folks" aren't buying hunting licenses or posting about it on the internet. Truly "poor folks" will shoot game for meat when they need it without regard to tags and they sure aren't sitting behind a computer discussing it. Only in America do people with 2 or 3 cars, houses, air conditioning, fridges/freezer and disposable income claim to be "poor". I've visited 49 countries in my Navy Career and I've seen real poverty and that is something that isn't very common here. We actually have it pretty good here. For less than $200 in tag fees a hunter can go after elk, deer, bear, antelope and small game. You may have to draw the antelope and may not get it every season but I have had years when I had all 4 of those tags in my pocket at the same time. Only when you get into moose, sheep and goat do the fees creep up and at $250 apiece they are still bargins. Do some comparisons with other states that have those same game animals and you'll see what I mean. I drew a goat tag in 2001. Did the hunt on my own in the Collegiate Peaks Wilderness Area by Buena Vista. No guide. All in all including the price of the tag I had less than $400 in that hunt and I took a billy with 9 1/8 inch horns. Not many places you can do a hunt like that for that little cash. Colorado is one of them. |
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