Hunting Forum

I've been wanting to develop some shot cartridges for my .444 for use on small camp pests while hunting; similar to the CCI rounds for various handgun cartridges.  I have the CCI's in .44, and I have the empty shot cups for handloading .44 Spl./.44 Mag. which is the exact diameter of the .444.  I've hunted around a long time for published data - with no luck.  Any NRA old-timers out there with experience/advice on the subject?  I'm not trying to reinvent the .410 shotgun or anything.  I just want a small, light  load of #8 or 9's at about 900/950 fps - max effective range about 50 feet.  Obviously case volume vs. powder weight is the biggest hurdle....  "Trail Boss" powder?  Dacron fiber filler?  I know somebody has had to have done this before me - I only have 30+ years & 10,000+ rounds of loading under my belt.

I hesitate to put this out there because of the message it may send to newer reloaders.  Read (No, really read!) the manuals and follow their instructions & recommendations.  After 20 years or so, and a couple of 'wildcats', you'll have a better understanding to "think outside of the box" if you're inclined to do so

Have you tried contacting Speer directly? I think you're right about the bulk issue. Maybe SR4759 would be a good powder too. What about using data and powder for a cast bullet? What would a capsule/shot charge weigh? Comparable to a cast bullet? In my mind, a plastic container wouldn't cause more pressure than a lead bullet. Or at least not as much as a jacketed bullet. Worst case scenario would be a capsule stuck in the barrel. Break it and the pellets run out. Just do it muzzle down so the pellets don't run back into the action!

I know it's not much help but just a few musings from another experienced (35+ years) reloader. Good luck,

Dale

A good idea to ask Speer, but I'm guessing this is such a small 'niche' of their market that they haven't spent the time & effort for lab testing this combination.  Or they already know there are currently no suitable powders....  But I'll check.  In the same vein, I've thought about just using the CCI .44 rounds as they are.  Dimensionally, the .444 is just a very long .44 Spl./Mag., with a higher working pressure.  All headspace off the rim - it would be similar to firing .22 shorts out of a .22 LR chamber, .38 Spl. out of .357 Mag./Max., etc., I would think.  Questions or comments?

I'll bet they have tested it. Or at least played with it some in between major projects. It could be they played and found it don't work and that's why there is no data. You won't know unless you ask.

44 Mag to 444 is going to be a pretty big jump from the case to rifling, a lot more than the Spl/Mag jump. I don't know how tough the plastic shot capsule is, will it break up 'sooner' than it should? If so, the pattern may be horrible. I've shot a few of the shot capsules in 22 Mag, you certainly don't have lot of room for error.

You know, Marlin may have tried the 44 shot rounds in the 444 figuring a customer would try it. Might be worthwhile checking with them too. Does your owners manual say anything about using 44 Mag ammo in the 444?

Have you asked on any other reloading forums? This one's good but it's small. There are some with a lot more traffic, your chances of finding someone who has done this is better on one of them. I'd suggest the 24 hour campfire, use the 'reloading' or 'ask the gunwriters' sections. The 'campfire' section can be pretty wild and wooly so I'd avoid that.

Dale

Thanks for the replies dk, you've given me a couple ideas to pursue.  I don't do a lot of internet stuff (verified by the # of my posts), but maybe I should explore that option.  Bought the gun used - no manual; I would tend to think Marlin would advise against ammo other than cartridge stamped on barrel, most companies are that way now.  For example, I have a fairly new Win. M-94 in .357 Mag., manual says ".357 Mag. only".  Every other shooting source emphasizes the benefits of using .38 spl. for economy, less recoil, etc.  The reason is that after prolonged use of shorter cartridges, there tends to be a carbon build-up on the chamber wall at the case mouth.  Then with the 'full length' ammo, high pressure can occur.  I think that's an extreme scenario, which assumes the gun is never cleaned properly.  But there are an awful lot of lawyers out there....

I'm not expecting great patterns anyway, even the 50' I stated earlier is overly optimistic.  I'd be content with 30'.  Running a shot cup through rifling has to have some effect, at least the "micro-groove" may be more gentle than Ballard-cut rifling.

I could spare myself a lot of trouble by just packing a .22 along...      ...but there's not as much fun or challenge in that.

Like I said in the beginning, just a few thoughts. Hope they help in your search. Let us know what you find out.

Dale

I didn't really think he was right,but a friend told me he shoots 2 1/2" 410 shels from his 444!
I know you can chamber them in a 45cal but he swears he loads and fires them in his 444 Marlin for barn rats!

Here's what I use for fun on squirrels and rabbits ; use the plastic shotcups available from Speer (I forget the product number) load your preferred shot size (I use #9) and use the load data in the Speer handbook for .44 Specials place a piece of kapok or some other fiber over powder charge to hold it in place and load the shot cup with a light crimp to hold it in place . NOTE don't try to load more than three rounds in the magazine or the light crimp may push the shot cup too deep and cause pressure problems. although with light loads I don't think this will be a problemgiven the pressures of full house .444 loads. Final note you won't have much range but you will have fun and this load is devastating on cottonmouths and rattlers not to mention the common field rat.

You may want to load some .44 round ball with a light load to @600fps for fun with no recoil! Love my .444!

I've read about using kapok as a filler; better than Dacron, which can melt a little and deposit goo in the bore.  Where can one get kapok, out of curiosity?  And how much do you put in each case; do you weigh the kapok for more consistency?  I'm not worried about magazine capacity, I'll single-feed them into the chamber for my purposes.  I'm not sure I'm "brave" enough to try .410 shells; maybe they fit, but they're more powerful than what I'm trying to develop.

What kind of data do you use for the round ball loads?  That sounds like a fun little project, too.  I have a couple of "recipes" for round balls in the popular 30-cals, but haven't tried them.

Thanks for the replies.

First find some .430 dia round ball I got mine from Dixie Gunworks. and I used 6 to 7 grains of Bullseye you can try something else just keep it light and check in between shots in case one gets stuck in the bore untill you get what you're looking for you can also use swaged lead pistol bullets charged in a similar fashion . If a bullet gets stuck I use a 3/8" brass rod to tap it back out , its brass so it won't hurt the bore . the light loads are a hoot for rabbits and plinking turtles from the farm pond. Don't woory about wieghing the kapock or Dacron you're not shooting long distance and groups will probably be in the 3 to 4 " range  remember this is just plinking I've had some loads so slow they only traveled about 75yds  and you could see them going downrange velocity was around 400fps!

For ASpoor , update on a LIGHT load ,Winchester LRP primer 5.5 grs Bullseye and a 250gr cast lead swc with full crimp . less recoil than a .22 and three shots into one hole at 25yds. with iron sights. @one squares of some poly fiber purchased in a sheet from Wal-mart.

Thank you for the load info.  I'll have to try that one, too.  Been so busy w/ work lately I haven't had much time to load; even less to shoot.  Trials will have to wait until I pick up some Bullseye - not one of my usual brands of powder.  It looks like the summer will have lots of fun plinking time when I finally get to it!  Take care, I'll let you know how things turn out.