Hunting Forum

Ya know it just occurred to me that no one mentioned that that the doe fawns mature enough to breed before a year , and the button bucks get kicked out because they start to get frisky with mom . Their youth goes at a much faster scale . FACT !

This is certainly among the stranger threads I've run across. As hunters, we are basically controllable predators exercising the fundamental principle of biology: "Death is the flywheel of the ecosystem." The science of the situation is this: 1) fawns are pretty self-sufficient by the beginning of September and are totally on their own when they lose their spots and are weaned. 2) 50% of fawns, in a stable population, will not survive their first year. 3) Killing old does thins the herd just as effectively as killing a buck since the carrying capacity of an area is tied to the number of DEER, not just bucks or does.
Back when the deer population was recovering from its near-annihilation of the late 19th century, ( I can well remember 50 years ago when even seeing a deer in Illinois was a rare event) restricting hunting to the more elusive bucks made sense and the "emotional reasoning" of the orphan fawn was widely applied and accepted as a herd management tool. Those days are gone and population control is the major goal of sport hunting. Call it a "management doe" or just plain freezer meat, in a stable,healthy herd with a 1doe to 1 buck ratio, one doe will die for every buck each year.
Deer are not "moral", they are just critters. I would say our moral responsibility is to be stewards of our ecosystem, and sometimes that includes exercising our predator status with the objectivity of a wolf or coyote.

It doesn't hurt to take a doe or fawn at all...it is good for the herd; depending on the amount of deer you actually have to begin with.

RT4; Don't get me wrong. I looooove venison. I could eat it in place of beef all the time. However, if I there was a venison steak and a t-bone steak sitting in front of me and I could only choose one, I would have to choose (I might get some crap for this) the t-bone. LOL.

Db, with my income, I can't afford to buy steak, but if I could it'd be ribeyes instead of t-bone! I use my EBT card for milk, eggs, bread, flour, rice, and the basic staples, along with some canned veggies. Like I've said, if we didn't have venison, squirrel, rabbits, and fish, we wouldn't be eating meat!!!!!!!!!

Heat's probably going to be flying at me on this one but.... I much prefer a doe over a buck. Not pumped full of adrenaline etc. The meat, in my experience, is more tender. Unless of course you get Grandma Moses or something. Plus, I've tried eating those horns and no matter how or or how long I cook those suckers I just can't get 'em tender. They don't make good soup either... ;-)

Pop the doe, the fawns will be fine.

You'll get no heat from me, I think the same way. Right now when I hunt I hope I don't see that "buck of a lifetime" because I don't have the money (or permission ) to put him on my wall, other than an antler or european mount and that wouldn't be enough for such a good deer. I'm perfectly happy with just killing does all season long, I never get in my stand (I know some think it's wierd) thinking, "I hope ol' mossy horns walks out".

That is interesting...whenever I get up in my stand I always hope for the buck of a lifetime. You better watch out so that reverse psychology doesn't work you over.

RT4...there's a shirt that says "There is a place for all God's creatures, right next to the potatoes and gravy!" I think you should get it. LOL! And yes, I guess I would take a ribeye over a t-bone.

Don't get me wrong I'd be tinkled pink if he did, but it's not what occupies my mind all season like most. It's probably mostly because I have never seen a real big buck so I've just lost interest in that, not to mention I have a hard enough time seeing deer period here lately so I spend most of my time making sure I get enough meat for the year. BTW I have that shirt and I think I got it from a place called Legendary Whitetails.

Agreed that doe meat is better eating than a buck, just like a sow is better eating than a bo'hog, and a nanny is better eating than a billy.
Db, don't take this the wrong way, but since I'm an agnostic, it would be sort of hypocrtical of me to wear a shirt with that on it. I have seen those shirts, and there is someone here on this board who uses that as their signature line.
bambi, if you remember, I got some hassles about killing young bucks in a previous thread, but I do practice QDM on my property and like you, I'm a meat hunter first and will hang antlers on a board if they are decent enough, but I've been hunting for 48 years, and have probably killed well over 150 deer in my time.........I've never had any type of mount, other than horns on a plaque in all of that time. The only mount I own is my "almost" state record bobcat.

Good point bambi. And RT4; sorry, forgot about that. LOL. No offense taken.

Posted By 2links on 11 Sep 2011 03:22 PM
If you get a look at the fawn and it don't have nubs.  Take the fawn, that should count as a doe.      Better meat, and my logic, kill a fawn in the fall you've killed one deer.  Kill a doe in the fall, you've killed at least 2 deer.  A fawn has less chance of surviving winter then a mature doe anyway.

i like 2links solution. if you can see the nub on one fawn and not the other, shoot the other.

I guess, if you live in the North, where the winters can be really harsh, then the concept of killing a doe with fawns can be considered somewhat different than our approach down South. Just consider the apparant age of the fawns, and remember that when the doe comes in heat, she will probably run the fawn off anyhow.

Haven't had the chance (actually been in too much pain) to go out hunting but have been watching close..the doe are already running the spikes and fork horns off...the female fawns are pretty much on thier own..so stop being a Disney Freak and shoot the frigging doe already!!!! put some meat in the larder...

Rt4,
in Ct (can't get much more yankified than that) durning normal seasons Archery, Firearm and ML we can take 10 doe, then in zones 11 &12 you can get replacement tags for all of the doe you take on a 1 on 1 basis...which figures out to about 20 extra tags...so if ya kill one every hunting day in Jan and have filled all your tags you could end up with 30 deer...we do have some firearms restrictions,,State land is ML .45 and up and shotgun 20,12 &10 gauge solid slug only (no shot of any kind),
 
on private land 10 acers and more; besides the ML and shotguns we can use hand guns, the restictions on them are, revolver only with at least a 5/12" but 10" or less barrle .357 Mag cal and above handgun cartridge only (ie no 45-70 etc) rifles (6MM) .243 caliber and above...

archery state wide is any long bow (Stick, self, recurve or compound) 40# and above and in 11&12 any one can use a crossbow on private property during the Jan season...cross bow during the regular season (9/15 thru 12/31) by permit only statewide..so we do have some restrictions but it's getting better...

Two Tales, it sounds like Ct. has the most liberal game laws of any of the yankee states as far as the numbers. I'm glad we don't have different seasons for different weapons-I'd stay totally confused if we did!!!!! We have no limits on bucks, and no antler restrictions ( at present, unless the out of state hunters and the boys from upstate get their way). With 13 either-sex days, when we can kill two does per day, we can essentially kill 26 does. Then we can also purchase 4 additional antlerless tags to be used beginning on Sept. 15th. Which also gives us the potential of killing 30 does per season. When that's coupled with no limit on bucks, and a season that runs from August 15th to January 1st, the number of possibilities is staggering. Since I hunt a minimum of 3 to 4 days a week until the rut begins, and then I hunt every single day until the end of the season, I can't even begin to add up the numbers that I could legally kill, if the opportunity presented itself. I believe the most I've ever killed in one season was around 25 or 26, and that was back before we had so many either-sex days.

RT4, I envy your non-weapon distinct seasons. We have early bow Sept 15to Oct 20, early muzzleloader Oct 20-22, bow again Oct 24-Nov 25, Rifle Nov 26-Dec 10, Bow again Dec 12-Dec 16, Late muzzleloader Dec17-Dec31, and then very late bow Jan 1-Jan 31. Did you catch all that. We can kill 1 doe 1 buck per weapon. But on public land no more than two Bucks. So on private we can bag 6, thats it. If I travel 100 miles east in Maryland, it changes to 2 bucks 10 doe per weapon, and unlimited doe in urban areas with bow. Tell me thats not hard to follow!!!

That's why I made the comments about the Yankee state's being so complicated. Don't get me wrong, there are game zones, especially in the up-state of SC that have much more restrictive limits, no baiting, and no dog hunting, along with other restrictions that we don't have here in the lowcountry. With my memory problems, I'd never be able to know what's legal and what isn't if I had to contend with all of those different weapon seasons and limit regs!!!!!!

i always told myself i will never kill a doe with a fawn with it you never know that fawn might grow up to be a giant record taker buck and you will never find out if that fawn dies because it doesn't have a mom!!!!!

Well for me ...no problem!....Mr B has hereditary high cholesterol...and deer is the only "red" meat we eat....I am so sick of chicken...I swear I plucked a feather out of my head the other day!!
I shoot 2-4 doe a year and always see the fawns grouped in with the doe that made it after season...or several fawn in a group of their own....just a new family group....yep this year I actually had to chase a couple of fawn away and they watched me from the edge of the woods "clean" the doe....didn't make the backstraps I ate tonight taste bad at all ......

Hmm Well for me the area and amount of does that inhabit the area is my way of hunting. Just saying if there are too many deer for that area I will shoot does. I won't shoot fawns for two reasons, first it might be a young buck, second because I want more meat for all the work I'm going to do, you know skinning and cleaning. In my area 20 + yrs ago in the spring one could see hundreds of deer in a field, now maybe 15 is a large amount in the same field. Mi deer herd is still one of the largest but now with doe lic. we seem to have more control over the HEALTH of the herd. I shoot crop damage and it is does and fawns only. Watching deer most of the yr and shooting for months on end, both crop damage and hunting season, I shoot for meat, the larger the better. Now on my own land (120 acres) I don't shoot does. I'm trying to increase the size of the bucks and the does hold them here in hunting season. Notice I stated on my land because by the time deer season comes I have filled the freezer and a lot of others that need the help. The taking of does is GOOD herd management so shoot and enjoy the food.

Posted By twiegman on 07 Feb 2012 11:41 AM
i always told myself i will never kill a doe with a fawn with it you never know that fawn might grow up to be a giant record taker buck and you will never find out if that fawn dies because it doesn't have a mom!!!!!

Just so this is clear; once the fawns spots start to fade then their chance of survival is only slightly less than that of a full grown mature deer...if the spots are fully faded out then it's the same...I also only shoot the bigg'uns..nothing under 100 and generally nothing under 120 for doe...we do get them that run right up to the 200# mark often, infact the smallest I have shot in 5-6 years weighed 140# largest was 210# (doe)...more meat on the hoof means more meat in the freezer...