How many of you have see the population of the deer in Michigan decline? How many of you are tired of watching trees grow, instead of seeing deer?I know EHD was an issue this year but I am talking long term.  I have see that in the past 18 years of hunting my favorite pasttime has changed. I am seeing less deer every year in the areas I hunt, expecally up north in clare county. I beleive that the DNR is just out for profit, selling as many tags as they can to increase revenue.  When I first started hunting you had one buck tag when you filled it you could buy another, and unless you were a land owner you had to apply for the lotto system to try and get a doe tag.  Now look how many liceses you can get, it is ridiculous.  If You agree with me please let me know, and contact the DNR Via email or phone. I was able to get someone at the DNR to respond "Carter, Kelly Siciliano (DNR)"  "Carter, Kelly Siciliano (DNR)" CarterK@michigan.gov.  She has at least listened to my complaining and has given me some extra contacts at the DNR to share my disapproval with the way they manage the deer in michigan.
Bruce Barlow can be reached at barlowb@michigan.gov Gladwin Dnr Biologist
Kristin Bissell can be reached at bissellk@michigan.gov  Hillsdale, Lenawee county Biologist

Thanks

Steven Fackender

 

 

steven, 1st i would like to welcome you to the site.....we have had some good times with the guys and their families from on here with a few g.t.'s and such. don't be afraid of speaking your mind like you just did, but be kind to those that respond.

2nd. i would like to say you hit the nail on the head for the dnr's 1st calling. but yes there is other factors involve like ehd, coyotes, poaching, car deer accidents and areas being over hunted and i do know there is more to it then just those.

some of the things i know we can help control and we should. the other things we need to let the dnr do their job, but make sure we hold them accountable and not let politics control them.

Thanks for the welcome. And I have got a reply from the DNR and you would not beleive how they count the deer in the state of Michigan. Here is her exact quote, She is the biologist for Hillsdale, Lenawee county. I beleive they need to look at differant ways basically they count the dead deer and estimate what deer are living.

Hi, Steven.
First, we don’t count deer or take a census of them (even the census of the human population is not 100% accurate; you always miss someone). There is always a level of error surrounding any data. We estimate the deer population by using a variety data inputs collected at deer check stations, license sales data, hunter surveys, etc. All of that provides input for a very robust population model (you may be familiar with life tables from back in the day, but takes much more biological and location information into account, it is a sex-age-kill model). The most valuable output from the model is the population trends; we can compare these with other data to see if they line up and make sense on a large scale (e.g. deer-vehicle collision, crop damage, pellet count trends). A deer per square mile figure can be misleading if one is assuming that deer are evenly distributed across the landscape (e.g. if I gave you a people per square mile figure for Lenawee county, you would have many areas of the county that would not reflect that number because people are concentrated in urban areas). You don’t have to like the number, all things being equal, in 1990 the population at the county scale was slightly (and not necessarily statistically significantly) lower than in 2011.
Sincerely,
Kristin

Kristin M. Bissell, Wildlife Biologist
Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources
Waterloo Wildlife Office
13578 Seymour Road
Grass Lake, MI 49240
Phone: (517) 522-4097
Fax: (517) 522-3315

With this said whats your guys opinion? I am intrested to hear from other hunters if they think this is acceptible.

As Bill said, welcome to the site.
I think their method of "counting" is more a method of noting incline/decline than an actual count so in that respect it will suffice.
If you look hard at what's been going on you can tell someone is looking at every different way to control the deer population.

1) Let them grow bigger method and get the hunter to do it. QDM is being pushed at us from all directions when in reality it can't work on one plot or one county if the neighboring area doesn't participate.

2) Kill them all and let Walt Disney sort them out plan. The good old UNIT 452 free for all. TB my ass.

3) Starve them out. Percieved contaigon to ban baiting. Almost funny. A highly contaigous disease found in only 1 deer in a compound full of deer and institute a bait ban in the whole lower.

4) EHD .....would like to know just how wide spread this really was.

I've made a few trips over to state land area in Washtenaw county. Either the deer have quit crossong dirt roads and trails completely or they have a deer problem there...well a lack of deer problem. I didn't see 1 damn deer in 4 days in the area of Kalkaska county I hunt either. I saw alot on the buck poles and the vehicles headed home so I'll attribute that to not doing my pre season work. 
  

  
  
 

Mandatory kill reporting should be implemented too. Like, no 2nd tag unless or until you verify your previous kill.

Mandatory to take a doe before you get a buck tag.

I am not sure that would work. Your still counting dead deer. I agree with your method for distributing licenses. But it still will not tell us what the current population is.

Well this is one of those subjects that can certainly light the fueding fires....but here's my take...

We really all should consider qdm...Missouri implemented it, with a lot of the same old school hunter apprehension, and now they don't know why they fought it so much....you should see the deer there taking down there...I have...

As far as an "Earn a Buck" programs when you must take a doe first...not necessary...in this state, most of us have no problems putting a few does in the freezer

I have been lucky to bowhunt a private land area that practices qdm, and even though some of the neighboring properties don't practice, we all have noticed a change in the age structure of the deer, and the intensity of the rut when it takes place...

I personally have NOT taken a buck in 4 years...have had them in range, missed some dandies, let some walk...and if I'm really jonsing for a deer, then I will take a doe.

EHD has definatley reared its ugly head in my hunting areas, Kalamazoo, Barry, and Allegan counties...and there is a noticable reduction due to it, not from overhunting.

One other thing that has changed the deer hunting dynamic has been Food plots...give them fields of food on purpose, and not only will they hang around, but it will draw several more in, especially after the ag crops have been harvested, and as the deer begin "yarding" after the snow falls.

Check ins should be mandatory, even if its just a phone call in...this will help in the accuracy of the harvest numbers..

I could go on for much more, but I think you all see where I stand...thanks for reading.

Oh and welcome aboard sfakenderli!!!

Yes but why should everyone have to practice QDM when it's a trophy hunters phiosophy not a meat hunters.

Club Country tried that and has sustained TB status ever since. 

 

 

Steve, I think that's all they are worried about...deer killed but when reporting your kill you could also report how many live you saw afield.  
  
 

Amen brother Matt! I saw more bucks this year than I ever had in past seasons, and we don't practice QDM ! I am a meat eater, not a horm eater! I shot a spike horn the first day of bow season, good eating deer! After that I had to pass on MANY 8 and 6 point deer. Well? Did I practice QDM by shooting a spike and letting many bigger deer pass though out the season? Yes I did? There are many ways to look at deer management. Passing on deer isn't always the best answer. I can't wait till next season to see what caliber of bucks we have in my area. I know of one monster that is still walking.

You guys have definatly made my day, I like reading all everyones opinion. As far as EHD goes Yes it was definatly a problem this year, or was it? According to the DNR EHD has been around since the 60's. This year for some reason it did more damage than most years I will agree with that to a degree, however were I hunt that did not seem to be the issue. I spoke to many farmers and I have done a lot of scouting preseason. I did not come across any dead deer near the swamps, and only a few farmers said they had found some dead deer. So for me EHD does not seem to have an big impact like other places in Michigan.

I am a meat hunter, although I seem to like the success a little better if it has some extra bone to go along with it. My practice has always been to try and get the big buck first. So I usually take a pass on all does and small bucks up until thanksgiving time. If I have not put some meat in my freezer and horns on the wall by then I start looking for a decent size doe to fill the freezer. But back to my origanal reason why I started this post in the forum is that I have not seen the amount of deer that I have in the past. I have been hunting for 18 years and when I started it was nothing to see 20 deer a day during the first part of the season. Now I am lucky to see 30 deer a season. My total deer count for this season is 30. And I hunt 3 differant countys. (lenawee, Hillsdale, and Clare) Majority of the deer I have seen have been in Lenawee, Hillsdale. Clare county we hunt state land near the western loop of the snowmobile trail outside of Harrison. Good luck seeing a deer in that area. Lenawee, and Hillsdale I hunt near Hudson both state and private property. I have several stands/spots, depending on weather and wind direction that tells me pretty much which stand to sit. But it is the overall deer population, its just not here. I have gotten to the idea that I really do not care if I fill my freezer I just want to see more deer. It will probably never get back to the way it was but if I could see a deer every time I went out I would feel much better about hunting in Michigan. I have actually started to think about the possibility of hunting outside this state for deer.

Again feel free to post your comments I enjoy reading them. Thanks

New update from the DNR and my correspondence below.

Thank you, and yes I would like to hear Brent Rudolph's input and gather as much knowlage as I can. With your last email I was under the impression that most of what you were doing to estimate the populations size/count is by the amount of dead deer. And by count I mean estimated deer herd size. I have started a forum post on this discussion with the North American Hunting club. I wanted to get other hunters from Michigans opinion, and what may need to change. Here is the link http://www.huntingclub.com/connect/...ft/194084. This message as will will be posted for them to see. Some have made some good suggestions that may be woth looking into. Just a few suggestions like "earn a buck" program, or manditory checkin by phone or anything when you tag a deer, no does until after Thanksgiving Day.

Now this does not help in finding a better way to estimate/count the deer, and I am not sure I can help find a better way. But I am willing to try and see if I can help.. Again my basic consern is that I beleive that the deer population is much lower than what we think, and I do not beleive I am alone on this topic. My best example is still going from seeing 20 deer a day when I started hunting to currently seeing 30 deer per season. How often does the DNR do the feild based methods for estimating deer population? I would also like to know more on how these studies are done, like the pellet count, and population reconstruction models. Maybe these can be good tools for sportsman as well when we are scouting for that perfect spot. Does the DNR offer a way for us as Sportsman to give our information other than surveys, and check stations after deer season? An example would be off season when I am out scouting, doing other hunting, or possibly doing our own deer study on the land we hunt?

Again thank you for your time in answering my questions

Steven Fackender II




From: "Bissell, Kristin (DNR)"
To: 'Steven Fackender'
Cc: "Rudolph, Brent (DNR)"
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: RE: Deer hunting in michigan



Steven,

Thank you for the information on the wild hogs; I’ll send it to the Diagnostic Center for Population and Animal Health, for their records. I just wanted to respond on a couple more of your points.

We do not include information from game ranches in population estimates for free-ranging deer. Game ranches (Captive Cervidae Facilites or Privately Owned Cervidae Facilities) are regulated largely by the Michigan Department of Agriculture and Rural Development (as they are captive bred and owned, like cows); the DNR’s only role in regulation of captive herds is in examining the facilities (mainly fences & movement records) to ensure that Michigan’s free-ranging deer are not put at additional risk of negative impact by the facilities’ practices.

There are field based methods for estimating deer population size at applied scales. Pellet counts are a useful and well-tested method that is commonly used in northern parts of the state where snow cover is consistent enough to provide the necessary conditions to apply the index. Aerial surveys have been tested for white-tailed deer as well & can provide some information on density and herd size; however, they can only be applied as a minimum number; correlating sightability indexes can be used; however the correct conditions must apply for them to be representative (i.e. snow cover, quantifiable experience level of observer, defined vegetation cover types, etc.). Then, of course, there is mark recapture. These are done at a study/research level and require animal handling methodologies and, as with anything, a valid research design. Mark-recapture is a classic way to get population estimates; however, it can only work for the scale at which one is able to apply it. Population reconstruction models are a fantastic way to estimate population size and trends at larger scales when you are able to get at the kind of biological, location, & hunter effort/success information that we have access to, in Michigan.

I’m not sure what you mean by a count. Counting alone, without a tested survey design and tested sightablity indexes does not provide information about population size. We (DNR and wildlife profession as a whole) are constantly evaluating methods for collecting population-level data that will help to answer questions that we have about wildlife populations we manage. Each year, the deer and turkey specialists from all the Midwestern states gather to discuss issues of regulations and population monitoring; to compare methods, their robustness and the pros and cons of each. However, if you feel that you have a survey design and population estimation method, or combination of methods, that would be superior than those currently used in Michigan, I’m sure we’d be open to reviewing it. If you want to discuss further the survey methodologies and biostatistics applied for white-tailed deer population estimates at varying geographic scales in Michigan, perhaps it’s best that you continue this conversation with Brent Rudolph, the deer specialist and researcher for the state. I’ll copy him on this e-mail. He’ll be able to speak more intelligently on the subject of available survey methodologies, why some are better than others, how they can and can’t be used, etc.

At my level, I use a variety of available information to give me a picture of what’s going on across the counties I manage. One of the most valuable sources of data are the voluntary deer check stations. Not only can I collect specific biological data on deer from across the region and the state, but I get to talk to hunters and hear what they’ve been seeing while they’re out in the field. I can also gather my own impression from my own experience in the field; but 5,000 pairs of eyes is better than one! Anyway, that’s why it is very helpful to me that you’ve taken the time to express your concerns and describe to me what you’ve seen and where. It will not be forgotten when I’m reviewing the variety of data on the deer population for Hillsdale, Jackson, Lenawee, and Washtenaw Counties, later this winter and into the spring.

Thank you, again, Steven for your correspondence.

Sincerely,

Kristin

Kristin M. Bissell, Wildlife Biologist
Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources
Waterloo Wildlife Office
13578 Seymour Road
Grass Lake, MI 49240
Phone: (517) 522-4097
Fax: (517) 522-3315

thought from a getting old fart.....

back in the late 50's and early 60's a deer in southern Mi. was almost unheard of. one had to travel to the lake superior water shed to find any deer #'s in the state and many familys did. in the lower peninsula one traveled to the cedar swamps in the manistee national forest area.

then in the late 60's and early 70's things changed......the deer population exploded in the southern part of the state -- when i started deer hunting it was nothing to see 100 of deer in a morning hunt and you couldn't take does unless you was able to draw a doe tag or with your bow -- then in the late 70's the dnr started to make changes to help lower the deer herd in our southern zone.

it took several years and many more changes before any sign of the deer herd going done except on state land -- where it showed dropping almost during the 1st. year -- then it was hard to get a deer on state land. also during this time the deer #'s drop big time in the U.P. except in pockets.

now because of being afraid of lost revenue i believe the dnr is afraid of changing laws again -- er should i say deregulate -- to help bring the deer herd back up .

Very intresting, with your experience what would you recommend the DNR and us as hunters do to help the herd? Thanks for your post.

not sure what can be done, but i do have a few ideas.....

---do away with the early and late doe seasons
---do away with the duel buck tag. sell 1 tag for gun er bow only.
---cut down on the # of doe tags for a couple of years
---we do need to have more habitate projects done thru out the state.....like more aspen clear cuttings to help regenerate new growth[more animals would benafit from this]

i believe there is more that could be done, but just not sure what they could be right now without feeding the special interest groups er using their language.

this year EHD had perfect conditions to do alot of damage to alot of deer herds indiana and ohio got devistated by this disease far greater than any county here in michigan its was these little showers we got during the drought that rly boosted it it was said by scientists something that only happens every 1 out of 30 years or so but ur right when it comes to the dnr miss managing deer harvest they got to new young bucks that just came out of school running the whole thing now and god only knows what we got in store for our future but just like any other political regime i think this is something the people of michigan should have a vote on but we dont all we get out of it is a little letter asking us how many we shot and what we thought of the season me seeing no diffrence if i wrote anything at all what i think manage ur older does age 3 and up manage hurt or disfunctional genes of older to management bucks these two things have always kept my deer herd in check and if you have predators i say start hunting them now before they hunt ur herd

Here in NY, we volunteer to track our hunts and record time in the woods and every animal we see, location, and how many each time. This report is sent back to the DEC at the end of the season. This along with reporting kills and check-in stations seems to help keep a more accurate account.

Anyone look at the food sources in the areas you are hunting? Also by being in an area and seeing many deer are your sure you are not seeing the same ones over and over. I do on my property, I see anywhere from 6 to 13 per day before season so at the end of the season I MAY have seen 60 to 70 deer but you would have to subtract the repeats IF you could identify them. Counting deer is NOT easy. One spring I had well over 700 deer in a one mile field, 20 some yrs ago. Guess what, now I don't see that anymore. One high winter kill, and, if it is brown it is down tude has reduced people to now hunt instead of shooting. just some food for thought.

Well down in the hudson area we have plenty of farm fields. This year they planted winter wheat so you would think the deer would come out to feed, but nope. Matter of fact I put 2 gallons of corn out and it took 1 week before the few deer that are in the area to find it. Just like you had said it was a group of 3 small does that continued to come in to feed. Up north in Harrison, Marion area it is solid woods and the food source is scarce. Do you think the DNR is managing the herd correctly, or do you think they should change some things. If so what?

dnr wont do squat think about it they brought coyote herd in to control deer population not looking at them targeting more small game than deer now small game has dropped consderably while coyote herd have sky rocketed now theyre bringing down cougars to take out coyote populations and theyre getting trail cams of cougars taking out deer the dnr are a joke with a badge who are lazy sry i have no use for the dnr untill someone who is conservative and ready to show initiative to do so untill then ill never trust the dnr we need to take it upon ourselves to manage and conserve our heritage

The DNR does more to mess up things than they could ever fix. I also hunt in Clare County, and I can remember seeing 30 deer per day during gun season. Now, I am lucky to see 15 in an entire season on multiple properties. We have several issues in the last 20 years to account for this:

Crop damage permits - the farmers slaughtered 50 deer per year for 5 years straight
Increase in housing - 7 new houses force new travel patterns and cut off travel to and from certain areas
Number of tags - the ability to take 10 deer in a season is ridiculous
Coyotes - a huge pack of the predators have taken up residence on or near our lands

I am lucky to see 2 to 4 bucks in a season. I used to see 20 to 30. I wish the government would pull their head out of their behind and talk to the hunters. Or at least look at what other states are doing right.

I agree with you, they are not doing the job properly.  I continue to email but few respond.  The biologist for clare county is Bruce Barlow can be reached at barlowb@michigan.gov  and the phone number is 989-426-9205.  However I have not had the chance to communicate with him I have tried but no responce.  It may help if you email or call him and share your dissappointment.

I received a new reply today from the DNR from both Kristin and Brent
Steven,
For information on wildlife surveys and reports, see the following link to our website:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,...--,00.html
For information on the state’s Deer Management Plan, which was developed with public input and presented at public meetings across the state prior to finalization, see the following link to our website:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,...--,00.html
For information about the Regional Deer Advisory Teams, see the following link to our website:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,...--,00.html
For information about the Natural Resources Commission, their meeting schedule, and how to make public appearances, see the following link to our website:
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,...--,00.html
You may also be interested in looking at the all-inclusive deer website created by DNR and the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife t Michigan State University. The website covers everything from basic deer biology to hunting regulations to the newest deer research. Below is a link to that website.
http://deer.fw.msu.edu/
I’m sure you’ll find all this information interesting, it will help to answer many of your questions. I hope you had very happy holidays!
-Kristin
Kristin M. Bissell, Wildlife Biologist
Michigan Dept. of Natural Resources
Waterloo Wildlife Office
13578 Seymour Road
Grass Lake, MI 49240
Phone: (517) 522-4097
Fax: (517) 522-3315


Hi Steven,
I’m sorry for my delayed response. The busy deer season always runs into the busy holiday season for me, and I’ve also had several year-end research reports to wrap up over the last month or so. All of these time-sensitive things have left me falling behind on general correspondence.
We try as hard as we can to make resources available online to describe deer management goals and tools. Take a look at our deer website – www.michigan.gov/deer – to explore a bit of what’s out there. Specifically, follow the “Deer Management Plan” link from the bottom and then take a look at Appendix D that is part of the plan. It provides an overview of a lot of basic deer management concepts and summarizes some of the strengths and weaknesses of various tools to use for deer estimates or indices – some of which we use, and some we don’t.
Something else to bear in mind is that basic logistical constraints and environmental differences often place a limit on the feasibility of monitoring methods in different regions of the state, and sometimes important considerations change over time. Pellet surveys are a good example. They were initially implemented in northern regions back when we had very few deer in southern Michigan. As southern Michigan deer populations grew, they were not adopted in this region because pellets are much harder to find in plowed fields than in forested settings. Now we have less open farmland in southern Michigan, but some of that change is because development has increased and property sizes even in still rural areas have shrank – and since conducting pellet surveys depends upon gaining permission from landowners, it’s simply not possible to efficiently do that across many property owners within the window of time during which surveys must be conducted, even if there are areas in southern Michigan were environmental conditions may be suitable for conducting pellet surveys. The complication of gaining landowner permission was also a significant reason we stopped doing pellet surveys in the northern Lower Peninsula.
We have adapted techniques and explored new ones over time. Population reconstruction methods are more feasible and efficient to use with the systems of hardware and software we now have. Over just my 13 years here in the state we’ve shifted from providing printed copies of data that staff would add to binders and use calculators to generate numbers to a system through which all data are entered into an online database so that staff can launch software to run various versions of the calculations within a few minutes. The time saved in generating the estimate can then be reinvested in comparing estimates and trends to other indices, hunter observations, etc. More recently, we’ve collaborated with researchers at Michigan State University to extract DNA from deer pellets so that we can begin to learn more about how individual deer move across the landscape in farmland and suburban settings. This will enhance information we’ve gathered from radiocollar studies, but these kinds of projects are expensive and labor intensive, so they can only be done at specific times and places in conjunction with addressing other research questions – they do not represent tools that can be used to provide all of our biologists with the same information every year.
I see Kristin has also replied and included links to information about our Deer Advisory Teams (DATs) and our Natural Resources Commission (NRC). Public input is a legally guaranteed opportunity through the NRC meetings, and the DATs have been a recent initiative by Wildlife Division to provide an ongoing, highly engaged method to get input as we develop recommendations to bring to the NRC.
Thanks for your interest in deer and deer management in Michigan, and your continued efforts to become more informed
Brent
Brent A. Rudolph
Wildlife Research Specialist – Deer and Elk Program Leader
Michigan Department of Natural Resources
Rose Lake Wildlife Research Center
862 East Stoll Rd
East Lansing, MI 48823
Office: (517) 641-4903 (ext 248)
Mobile: (517) 643-6661
rudolphb@michigan.gov

sorry to say this but nothing ive read that youve just posted has told me how this is gonna be fixed
and to be truthful i dont believe the dnr as far as i can throw em and ive got a bad arm
we dont need the dnr to tell us how to manage deer herds we as ethical hunters know how to do this
ur the ones throwing tags out like its nothing and im sure its because well hell the more tags we give out the more many we get kind of situation
we need restricted permits down to two tags a buck and doe max two doe tags and thats it agriculture has always been good down here in southern Michigan
and even in a droubt season deer are eating well we just need the dnr to listen that they dont do well at all so untill we see results instead of decline ill stick to what i know and thats how to manage a property on my own

Guys, I have been off of the site for a while.

I took some time off, as I was looking for work.

Then, I got a job, and don't have much time to be online.

But, this is a great topic. I hope that all is good for you guys in Michigan. If you run into Coffeeman, tell him that I say hello.