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Moral Dilema, Doe w/ Fawn
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bluedevil
Posts:198
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| 10 Sep 2011 01:09 AM |
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Here is my dilema, I am on a farm with some older friends (like 50s and 60s), and we have let this farm sit basically for 3 years to get our bucks where we want them. We are now very over run with does because I am the only one who would kill one. Now the head of the farm wants all does killed that we can. Just about all the does I am seeing have fawns with them, and on the famr we must kill a doe before a buck. I do not want to shoot a doe who has fawns with her, not becuase I do not know if they will make it or not, but I accidentally killed a doe who had 2 fawns with her (I never saw them and she was in bow range). For the entire year they stayed by my stand and fawn called for their mom all year, I said right then that I would never do that again. I have some nice bucks in the area, but what do I do about my doe situation? Thanks for the advice. |
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grandpops
Posts:402
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| 10 Sep 2011 03:30 AM |
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If you want to continue hunting this mans land, then you'll hunt the way he tells you to or else pack your stuff and leave. As for shooting a doe with fawns, by the time season opens, the fawns are old enough to take care of themselves. I normally try to find a barren doe, but that doesn't always happen. By thinning out the does, you'll actually help the health of the remaining herd. |
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| Fred, Cleburne, Tx.
NRA Life Member, NAHC Life Member, DU, USN Vet, NRA Certified Instructor
"A gun is like a parachute.
If you need one, and don't have one,
you'll probably never need one again." |
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..l..
Posts:112
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| 10 Sep 2011 06:12 AM |
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i dont have a problem getting a real good look for nubs on the fawns and if none are there i will harvest, yes i do feel guilty until i cut the first chop with my spoon |
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| proud to be american no matter what or who |
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dk99300
Posts:262
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| 10 Sep 2011 09:18 AM |
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Hunt normally, shoot a doe whether she has fawns or not. They'll be fine. The landowner wants the herd thinned. If your group doesn't do it, he will find someone who will.
That said, I think your situation was extremely unusual. If it happens again, shoot the fawns, they're obviously dumber than a box of rocks and need removed from the gene pool by a hunter or other predator.
The only other options I see are to find a place where you only buck hunt or quit hunting. There will ALWAYS be a chance that there are unseen deer.
Dale
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| Anyone who thinks laughter is the best medicine has never had morphine |
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MRD
Posts:200
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| 10 Sep 2011 11:58 AM |
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bluedevil you said they stayed there all year , so obviously they did just fine . Now they are mature and you might just shoot one of those this year . |
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| Bow , Black Powder , or Rifle , They all get my blood flowing ! Life member 1991 |
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farmer red1
Posts:785
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| 10 Sep 2011 02:08 PM |
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i'm like you.don't like to shoot does unless i need some meat and thats not to often.just check her out real well,if she looks old or older than most of them you have seen then take her.her fawns will do fine.if shes a young looking doe then check out the fawns.it doesn't hurt to take a few fawns out with a few older does.just look hard for the buttons. |
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Ritchey Sr.
Posts:519
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| 11 Sep 2011 01:46 AM |
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I shot a doe with a fawn a couple years back and will NEVER do that again! If there are lots of does you should have no trouble finding does without fawns and culling them. Good luck. |
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double eagle
Posts:62
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| 11 Sep 2011 12:58 PM |
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i'd say let them walk. If there is more than one mature doe, you may think differenly. I just hate for the fawns to lose their teacher before they know anything. They haven't been in a winter yet. If there are two mature does with them, chances are they will still hang with one that survives. Kill all the does, and your bucks will go elsewhere. Maybe you can let them walk and not tell the land owner. This is where hunting is not killing. It teaches young hunters that you just aren't out there to kill. |
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2links
Posts:412
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| 11 Sep 2011 02:22 PM |
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If you get a look at the fawn and it don't have nubs. Take the fawn, that should count as a doe. Better meat, and my logic, kill a fawn in the fall you've killed one deer. Kill a doe in the fall, you've killed at least 2 deer. A fawn has less chance of surviving winter then a mature doe anyway. |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 11 Sep 2011 05:06 PM |
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If the property is over loaded with does, killing a few fawns will help to get the buck to doe ratio straightened out. The SC DNR has reasoned that fawns are capable of taking care of themselves after the middle of September on average. That is why we can start killing them ( with our optional doe tags) on Sept. 15th. Then our first antlerless day is Oct. 1st. We will have antlerless days every Saturday except for the first two in Dec., and then the last day of the season is also an antlerless day as well. Of course, we can get 4 of the tags and those can be used any time, beginning Sept. 15th and lasting till the end of the season on Jan. 1st.
Killing does and the occasional fawn will allow the other deer an opportunity for more food and minerals, which should relate to bigger and better bucks, as well as the does and their fawns. |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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bluedevil
Posts:198
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| 13 Sep 2011 01:35 PM |
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Thanks for all your replies. I shot does for meat. I have a nice buck on the wall and wont shot another buck unless its bigger then what I have gotten already. I love to fill my freezer with meat in early bow season. Im hoping that I can find a few does that do not have fawns with them so I wont have this dilema on stand. Im of the same mind that double eagle said. I know they may survive, but if I kill off the mom, then I wonder if I am reducing the chance of survival. Thanks for all your thoughts, its very much appreciated. |
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navyman_bosley
Posts:127
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| 13 Sep 2011 08:46 PM |
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I think rt4 put it plain and simple. In MD our early bow season starts september 15th, which is set at that date because it is when the fawns can completely survive on their own, they are done nursing, and will find their own food, unless the coyotes find them first. Come sept 15th, if the does are still with fawns, don't feel bad, but at this time of year, look for the ones without fawns to help your moral dilemma. They have been completely weened, and you should start seeing the fawns walking around together, and playing...without mom. |
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| 4 years Aircraft Support Equipment Technician US Navy, Global War on Terror/Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran. Marlin XS7C 243, federal premium 100gr, Marlin model 783 22mag tube fed bolt action, Tenpoint Titan HLX, Tenpoint carbon bolts, 100gr 3 blade spitfire, Thompson Center Black Diamond Camo stock .50 cal home made round balls, maxi balls, mini balls, and maxi hunters(maxi hunter is the way to go!) |
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teezr9
Posts:143
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| 17 Sep 2011 01:33 AM |
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By decreasing the herd concentration, you are, in fact, increasing the survivabilty of the remaining herd members. Decreasing the load on the environment means better quality forage for remaining deer. Short of fencing the whole place in, you'll never kill 'em all.
The herd will get thinned, one way or another. 1: You do as asked, 2: Your replacement does as asked 3: Mother Nature's way. Your choice.
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| Jerry in MS. Teach your kids to hunt and you won't have to hunt for your kids. NAHC and Buckmasters LM, NRA, DU. |
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OUTDOORTUNDRA
Posts:167
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| 24 Sep 2011 08:38 AM |
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TEEZR, STRONG POINT. I WOULD HAVE TO SAY, IF YOU HUNT A PROPERTY AND THE LAND OWNER ASKS YOU TO DO IT, I'D DO IT. I KNOW ITS HEART BREAKING TO SEE FAWNS LIKE THAT AFTER YOU SHOOT THEIR MOM, BUT YOU KNOW, THATS NO DIFFERENT THAN IF SAY A PACK OF YOTES WERE TO KILL THEIR MOM, THEY'D BE STRANDED TOO. PLUS, DIFFERENT AREAS, LIKE SAY WHERE I HUNT, NORTHERN INDIANA, OUR SEASON OPENER IS OCT. 1, BY THEN, FAWNS ARE NO WHERE NEAR THEIR MOTHERS ANYMORE, THEY ARE OFF ON THEIR OWN WITH OTHER FAWNS PLAYING. MHO, I'D SHOOT MATURE DOES, EVEN IF SHE IS WITH FAWNS. IF YOU HAVE THAT MANY DOE ON THE PROPERTY, THEN IT WON'T HURT TO SHOOT A FEW DOES WITH FAWNS, I'M SURE THE FAWNS WILL WANDER OFF AND BE JUST FINE. BEST OF LUCK TO YOU IN YOUR SITUATION AND HOPE YOU START TO SEE A DIFFERENCE IN YOUR HERD. |
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MRD
Posts:200
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| 24 Sep 2011 04:05 PM |
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Think about it , if this would create a problem it would have been exposed decades ago . Fawns are fine to fend for themselves now . |
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| Bow , Black Powder , or Rifle , They all get my blood flowing ! Life member 1991 |
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Brian Warner
Posts:3346
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| 24 Sep 2011 07:57 PM |
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Taking a doe in the range for breeding is the quickest way to reduce the herd numbers. Taking a fawn too young to breed will encourage more breeding. Once the spots ar off a fawns chances of survival are only slightly less than a fawn with a doe. |
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| 20 Year Life Member NAHC, Whitetails Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited. Founder and owner of Heirloom Game Calls, Master call maker, Retired Airforce (22 years), Disabled Veteren, Survivor of stage 4 Esophageal Cancer, heart attack and 6 way by-pass, 2 kids, 3 grandbabies and 32+ years of marriage to the same great gal (Miss Kathy). |
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kyotee
Posts:466
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| 25 Sep 2011 09:11 AM |
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After 40 years at this, I stil lhave the same issue ............ leaving orphans, but it has to be done to balance the herd. Shooting the does will not run the bucks off either, especially if the doe count is high like you say. I have come up with a process as to which does to shoot. First, I hunt private land also and on a regular basis, so I somewhat know which deer I am seeing regularly, every year there seems to be that one doe that just knows I am there ........... she can be up wind and I don't make a sound or movement and she will stop in stride and look and stare right at me ............... she is the one to put down. If this isn't the doe for you, look for a barren or 1/1/2 year old doe that hasn't dropped fawns yet ..... one of these 3 senerio's usually gets my doe tags burned.
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| An adventure is an expedition the INSTANT something goes wrong ..... lifer since '97
Nomadic Kyotee |
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huntrdave
Posts:26
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| 25 Sep 2011 09:19 PM |
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Not only are the fawns capable of fending for themselves by that time, don't forget that deer are herd animals and they will seek out the other does and fawns through the winter months. They will be just fine. |
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Duckbuster
Posts:257
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| 25 Sep 2011 10:11 PM |
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Sounds like the landowner's own Earn a Buck program. LOL. Actually, I've never shot a doe or fawn. Just can't bring myself to do it for some reason. I'll probably have to this year...beef is getting expensive. |
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| Every sunrise I take in over a marsh or in a forest, I thank God for all he has given us. |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 27 Sep 2011 06:57 AM |
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What's this "beef" you speak of? Killing some does and even one or two fawns is healthy for the herd, and they make much better table fare than some big old nasty gnarly buck! |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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MRD
Posts:200
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| 27 Sep 2011 05:54 PM |
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Ya know it just occurred to me that no one mentioned that that the doe fawns mature enough to breed before a year , and the button bucks get kicked out because they start to get frisky with mom . Their youth goes at a much faster scale . FACT ! |
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| Bow , Black Powder , or Rifle , They all get my blood flowing ! Life member 1991 |
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finepoint
Posts:112
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| 27 Sep 2011 09:33 PM |
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This is certainly among the stranger threads I've run across. As hunters, we are basically controllable predators exercising the fundamental principle of biology: "Death is the flywheel of the ecosystem." The science of the situation is this: 1) fawns are pretty self-sufficient by the beginning of September and are totally on their own when they lose their spots and are weaned. 2) 50% of fawns, in a stable population, will not survive their first year. 3) Killing old does thins the herd just as effectively as killing a buck since the carrying capacity of an area is tied to the number of DEER, not just bucks or does.
Back when the deer population was recovering from its near-annihilation of the late 19th century, ( I can well remember 50 years ago when even seeing a deer in Illinois was a rare event) restricting hunting to the more elusive bucks made sense and the "emotional reasoning" of the orphan fawn was widely applied and accepted as a herd management tool. Those days are gone and population control is the major goal of sport hunting. Call it a "management doe" or just plain freezer meat, in a stable,healthy herd with a 1doe to 1 buck ratio, one doe will die for every buck each year.
Deer are not "moral", they are just critters. I would say our moral responsibility is to be stewards of our ecosystem, and sometimes that includes exercising our predator status with the objectivity of a wolf or coyote. |
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| First Law of Heredity: You can't get out of your genes in a hurry, even when you really want to. |
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Duckbuster
Posts:257
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| 27 Sep 2011 10:08 PM |
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It doesn't hurt to take a doe or fawn at all...it is good for the herd; depending on the amount of deer you actually have to begin with.
RT4; Don't get me wrong. I looooove venison. I could eat it in place of beef all the time. However, if I there was a venison steak and a t-bone steak sitting in front of me and I could only choose one, I would have to choose (I might get some crap for this) the t-bone. LOL. |
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| Every sunrise I take in over a marsh or in a forest, I thank God for all he has given us. |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 28 Sep 2011 12:21 PM |
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Db, with my income, I can't afford to buy steak, but if I could it'd be ribeyes instead of t-bone! I use my EBT card for milk, eggs, bread, flour, rice, and the basic staples, along with some canned veggies. Like I've said, if we didn't have venison, squirrel, rabbits, and fish, we wouldn't be eating meat!!!!!!!!! |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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Steve
Posts:1694
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| 28 Sep 2011 12:52 PM |
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Heat's probably going to be flying at me on this one but.... I much prefer a doe over a buck. Not pumped full of adrenaline etc. The meat, in my experience, is more tender. Unless of course you get Grandma Moses or something. Plus, I've tried eating those horns and no matter how or or how long I cook those suckers I just can't get 'em tender. They don't make good soup either... ;-)
Pop the doe, the fawns will be fine. |
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| Steve:
OSOK - Poughkeepsie, NY |
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bambikilla
Posts:788
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| 28 Sep 2011 01:13 PM |
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You'll get no heat from me, I think the same way. Right now when I hunt I hope I don't see that "buck of a lifetime" because I don't have the money (or permission  ) to put him on my wall, other than an antler or european mount and that wouldn't be enough for such a good deer. I'm perfectly happy with just killing does all season long, I never get in my stand (I know some think it's wierd) thinking, "I hope ol' mossy horns walks out". |
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| Jared from MS- Life Member NAHC- "It's not a passion, it's an obsession." |
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Duckbuster
Posts:257
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| 28 Sep 2011 01:53 PM |
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That is interesting...whenever I get up in my stand I always hope for the buck of a lifetime. You better watch out so that reverse psychology doesn't work you over.  RT4...there's a shirt that says "There is a place for all God's creatures, right next to the potatoes and gravy!" I think you should get it. LOL!  And yes, I guess I would take a ribeye over a t-bone. |
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| Every sunrise I take in over a marsh or in a forest, I thank God for all he has given us. |
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bambikilla
Posts:788
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| 28 Sep 2011 02:42 PM |
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Don't get me wrong I'd be tinkled pink if he did, but it's not what occupies my mind all season like most. It's probably mostly because I have never seen a real big buck so I've just lost interest in that, not to mention I have a hard enough time seeing deer period here lately so I spend most of my time making sure I get enough meat for the year. BTW I have that shirt and I think I got it from a place called Legendary Whitetails. |
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| Jared from MS- Life Member NAHC- "It's not a passion, it's an obsession." |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 28 Sep 2011 04:23 PM |
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Agreed that doe meat is better eating than a buck, just like a sow is better eating than a bo'hog, and a nanny is better eating than a billy.
Db, don't take this the wrong way, but since I'm an agnostic, it would be sort of hypocrtical of me to wear a shirt with that on it. I have seen those shirts, and there is someone here on this board who uses that as their signature line.
bambi, if you remember, I got some hassles about killing young bucks in a previous thread, but I do practice QDM on my property and like you, I'm a meat hunter first and will hang antlers on a board if they are decent enough, but I've been hunting for 48 years, and have probably killed well over 150 deer in my time.........I've never had any type of mount, other than horns on a plaque in all of that time. The only mount I own is my "almost" state record bobcat. |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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Duckbuster
Posts:257
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| 28 Sep 2011 07:11 PM |
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Good point bambi. And RT4; sorry, forgot about that. LOL. No offense taken.  |
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| Every sunrise I take in over a marsh or in a forest, I thank God for all he has given us. |
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bobbythehunter
Posts:108
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| 28 Sep 2011 07:28 PM |
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Posted By 2links on 11 Sep 2011 03:22 PM
If you get a look at the fawn and it don't have nubs. Take the fawn, that should count as a doe. Better meat, and my logic, kill a fawn in the fall you've killed one deer. Kill a doe in the fall, you've killed at least 2 deer. A fawn has less chance of surviving winter then a mature doe anyway.
i like 2links solution. if you can see the nub on one fawn and not the other, shoot the other. |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 29 Sep 2011 11:02 AM |
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I guess, if you live in the North, where the winters can be really harsh, then the concept of killing a doe with fawns can be considered somewhat different than our approach down South. Just consider the apparant age of the fawns, and remember that when the doe comes in heat, she will probably run the fawn off anyhow. |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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Two Tales
Posts:214
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| 29 Sep 2011 11:43 AM |
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Haven't had the chance (actually been in too much pain) to go out hunting but have been watching close..the doe are already running the spikes and fork horns off...the female fawns are pretty much on thier own..so stop being a Disney Freak and shoot the frigging doe already!!!! put some meat in the larder...
Rt4,
in Ct (can't get much more yankified than that) durning normal seasons Archery, Firearm and ML we can take 10 doe, then in zones 11 &12 you can get replacement tags for all of the doe you take on a 1 on 1 basis...which figures out to about 20 extra tags...so if ya kill one every hunting day in Jan and have filled all your tags you could end up with 30 deer...we do have some firearms restrictions,,State land is ML .45 and up and shotgun 20,12 &10 gauge solid slug only (no shot of any kind),
on private land 10 acers and more; besides the ML and shotguns we can use hand guns, the restictions on them are, revolver only with at least a 5/12" but 10" or less barrle .357 Mag cal and above handgun cartridge only (ie no 45-70 etc) rifles (6MM) .243 caliber and above...
archery state wide is any long bow (Stick, self, recurve or compound) 40# and above and in 11&12 any one can use a crossbow on private property during the Jan season...cross bow during the regular season (9/15 thru 12/31) by permit only statewide..so we do have some restrictions but it's getting better... |
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| Two Tales
Around the ragged edge on the rim of reality!
LM, DAV, Ret USN, Chief Instructor CE/FS, NRA Instructor |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 29 Sep 2011 06:50 PM |
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Two Tales, it sounds like Ct. has the most liberal game laws of any of the yankee states as far as the numbers. I'm glad we don't have different seasons for different weapons-I'd stay totally confused if we did!!!!! We have no limits on bucks, and no antler restrictions ( at present, unless the out of state hunters and the boys from upstate get their way). With 13 either-sex days, when we can kill two does per day, we can essentially kill 26 does. Then we can also purchase 4 additional antlerless tags to be used beginning on Sept. 15th. Which also gives us the potential of killing 30 does per season. When that's coupled with no limit on bucks, and a season that runs from August 15th to January 1st, the number of possibilities is staggering. Since I hunt a minimum of 3 to 4 days a week until the rut begins, and then I hunt every single day until the end of the season, I can't even begin to add up the numbers that I could legally kill, if the opportunity presented itself. I believe the most I've ever killed in one season was around 25 or 26, and that was back before we had so many either-sex days. |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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navyman_bosley
Posts:127
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| 29 Sep 2011 10:03 PM |
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RT4, I envy your non-weapon distinct seasons. We have early bow Sept 15to Oct 20, early muzzleloader Oct 20-22, bow again Oct 24-Nov 25, Rifle Nov 26-Dec 10, Bow again Dec 12-Dec 16, Late muzzleloader Dec17-Dec31, and then very late bow Jan 1-Jan 31. Did you catch all that. We can kill 1 doe 1 buck per weapon. But on public land no more than two Bucks. So on private we can bag 6, thats it. If I travel 100 miles east in Maryland, it changes to 2 bucks 10 doe per weapon, and unlimited doe in urban areas with bow. Tell me thats not hard to follow!!! |
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| 4 years Aircraft Support Equipment Technician US Navy, Global War on Terror/Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran. Marlin XS7C 243, federal premium 100gr, Marlin model 783 22mag tube fed bolt action, Tenpoint Titan HLX, Tenpoint carbon bolts, 100gr 3 blade spitfire, Thompson Center Black Diamond Camo stock .50 cal home made round balls, maxi balls, mini balls, and maxi hunters(maxi hunter is the way to go!) |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 30 Sep 2011 07:21 AM |
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That's why I made the comments about the Yankee state's being so complicated. Don't get me wrong, there are game zones, especially in the up-state of SC that have much more restrictive limits, no baiting, and no dog hunting, along with other restrictions that we don't have here in the lowcountry. With my memory problems, I'd never be able to know what's legal and what isn't if I had to contend with all of those different weapon seasons and limit regs!!!!!! |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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twiegman
Posts:36
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| 07 Feb 2012 10:41 AM |
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i always told myself i will never kill a doe with a fawn with it you never know that fawn might grow up to be a giant record taker buck and you will never find out if that fawn dies because it doesn't have a mom!!!!! |
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Badger1
Posts:204
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| 07 Feb 2012 10:03 PM |
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Well for me ...no problem!....Mr B has hereditary high cholesterol...and deer is the only "red" meat we eat....I am so sick of chicken...I swear I plucked a feather out of my head the other day!!
I shoot 2-4 doe a year and always see the fawns grouped in with the doe that made it after season...or several fawn in a group of their own....just a new family group....yep this year I actually had to chase a couple of fawn away and they watched me from the edge of the woods "clean" the doe....didn't make the backstraps I ate tonight taste bad at all ...... |
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mowgle
Posts:212
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| 09 Feb 2012 08:59 AM |
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Hmm Well for me the area and amount of does that inhabit the area is my way of hunting. Just saying if there are too many deer for that area I will shoot does. I won't shoot fawns for two reasons, first it might be a young buck, second because I want more meat for all the work I'm going to do, you know skinning and cleaning. In my area 20 + yrs ago in the spring one could see hundreds of deer in a field, now maybe 15 is a large amount in the same field. Mi deer herd is still one of the largest but now with doe lic. we seem to have more control over the HEALTH of the herd. I shoot crop damage and it is does and fawns only. Watching deer most of the yr and shooting for months on end, both crop damage and hunting season, I shoot for meat, the larger the better. Now on my own land (120 acres) I don't shoot does. I'm trying to increase the size of the bucks and the does hold them here in hunting season. Notice I stated on my land because by the time deer season comes I have filled the freezer and a lot of others that need the help. The taking of does is GOOD herd management so shoot and enjoy the food. |
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Two Tales
Posts:214
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| 09 Feb 2012 10:16 AM |
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Posted By twiegman on 07 Feb 2012 11:41 AM
i always told myself i will never kill a doe with a fawn with it you never know that fawn might grow up to be a giant record taker buck and you will never find out if that fawn dies because it doesn't have a mom!!!!!
Just so this is clear; once the fawns spots start to fade then their chance of survival is only slightly less than that of a full grown mature deer...if the spots are fully faded out then it's the same...I also only shoot the bigg'uns..nothing under 100 and generally nothing under 120 for doe...we do get them that run right up to the 200# mark often, infact the smallest I have shot in 5-6 years weighed 140# largest was 210# (doe)...more meat on the hoof means more meat in the freezer... |
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| Two Tales
Around the ragged edge on the rim of reality!
LM, DAV, Ret USN, Chief Instructor CE/FS, NRA Instructor |
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MRD
Posts:200
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| 09 Feb 2012 05:14 PM |
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Mama only keeps the gals in the fall , button bucks get kicked out . Like I said before maturity comes quick for deer and momma won't put up with that youngster being frisky . So don't worry about that future record buck , they all are on their own well before a year old . Fact |
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| Bow , Black Powder , or Rifle , They all get my blood flowing ! Life member 1991 |
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jwarner7
Posts:65
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| 10 Feb 2012 12:14 AM |
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iv shot many does and actually think its wrong to only shoot bucks. not shooting does is bad herd management. i know your not saying you dont shoot does blue. but my point is im sure sometime some where i have shot a doe that had a fawn or 2. and im sure most of them made it threw the winter just fine.
now this is for bwarner. shooting a doe or a fawn either one is taking a doe out of the breading range. in ohio a fawn will be bread unless it was born way later and about half or more have twins. i know when a lot of older does have 2-3 fawns every year there it dont take as many out but it does take 1-3 out of the next years herd.
iv hunted many years and iv seen the dif. in the way the herds in ohio and in wis . are handled. and the 1 buck way and keeping the herd with in a certain size is the best. in ohio it is possible to get 18 deer but only 1 buck. and look at what comes out of ohio every year.
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fast*eddie
Posts:45
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| 13 Feb 2012 07:19 AM |
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Shoot the does whether they have fawns with them or not . The fawns will survive . It promotes a healthier herd .
Someone typed that he shoots does " only if he needed meat" . To me , that's more unethical than shooting does with fawns ! |
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jwarner7
Posts:65
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| 16 Feb 2012 01:26 AM |
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i agree eddie.
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hillmp63
Posts:9
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| 18 Feb 2012 11:08 AM |
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Grow a pair dude! It's called hunting, get over the political correctness BS that this nation is so over come with. Be thankful that you have the doe to shoot.
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sgolisch
Posts:38
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| 06 Mar 2012 10:24 AM |
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i'll shoot a doe if the fawn has no spots.which, in fla. is about the 1st of oct. still bow season.and down here the winters aren't to bad 50's or 60's for a high,30's for a low.in sept though it's 90 plus,during bow season.do what your heart tells ya, and ya can't go wrong.no matter what enybody else says.good luck. |
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dclever
Posts:25
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| 15 Mar 2012 11:23 AM |
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A buck is going to push the fawns away from their mothers prior to winter anyways during the rut. By the time hunting season comes in they have learned almost everything they have to learn, and by the time winter rolls around the fawns will be established with a group of does. I took a doe this past year that had a fawn with it, the next day i have trail camera pictures of that fawn with two other does (it had a distinctive mark on its backside thats how I know). They are animals, and they will either adapt or die, most the time whitetails are smart enough to adapt. |
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JoeTermite
Posts:175
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| 18 Mar 2012 03:12 PM |
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You should Hunt N.J. in my zone which is outside Atlantic City in South Jersey. From September 1 through Jan 31 we can kill a deer every day. Mon through Sat. With a bow we can do it on Sunday Thats alot of deer.
Joe Bowden |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 18 Mar 2012 03:28 PM |
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Joe, in my zone in SC, I can legally kill a deer everyday, including Sunday with any weapon of my choice, from August 15 to Jan. 1. |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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treeclimber
Posts:104
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| 19 Mar 2012 09:09 PM |
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Alabama is in favor of a substantial doe harvest. You can bowhunt Oct 15th till Jan 31st. Muzzleloader is a week before the start of Firearms season which is usually around the 18th of Nov till Jan 31st. You can take 3 bucks during all combined seasons and 1 has to have at least 4 pts on one side. Everyday from Oct 15th till Jan 31st you can legally take 2 deer per day as long as only one is a buck, ie: 1 buck and 1 doe, or 2 does. They went to the 3 buck limit 3 to 4 years ago to get people to start shooting more does. Before that you could legally take the 2 per day with no season limit on how many bucks per season except only one per day could be a buck. They are now considering extending season to the middle of Feb. and also legalizing baiting. The extension is being considered because some parts of the state the deer don't go into rut till late Jan or early Feb. Most public land is bucks only during gun hunts and either or during bow hunts. Private and leased land has the 2 per day allowance. Some fawns here will be 6 months old before their spots are completely gone, and our biologist has always said if they are eating grass or browse even though they may still nurse that they are capable of making it without the mom. But then again the winters are not a factor in the survival as they are nothing like the north, we vary rarely get snow so finding food is not an issue for them.
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bluedevil
Posts:198
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| 09 Jun 2012 01:18 PM |
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I have not posted in a long time, old computer crashed and hada to buy a new one. I took a doe that had a button buck with it this in late October. I watched that same button the rest of the year and he did not seem to be in any danger. I saw him up until the last day of season, so I feel that I have witnessed the fact that the button survived without its mother. I did not intentionally shot her thought, did not see the button until after I shot, but at least I know now that they will be just fine it the lose momma. Thanks for everyones thoughts and opinions. |
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hillmp63
Posts:9
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| 22 Jul 2012 02:08 PM |
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What a bunch of wuss's on here. Sound like Lady's Home Journal responces on this topic. Come on grow a pair. |
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nmcpherson1
Posts:11
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| 24 Jul 2012 08:56 AM |
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Not only are the fawns capable of fending for themselves by that time, don't forget that deer are herd animals and they will seek out the other does and fawns through the winter months. They will be just fine. I love slick heads for filling the freezer and have even got one big enough that she lives on my wall permanently. She was my first bow kill and dressed at 208. I hunt my own farm but when it comes to doe w\ fawn I can't shoot them. I have a goal to thin out the herd due to being overrun with doe but I can't fathom killing a mother with visible fawns following. @huntrdave put it the best though. They are herd animals and just like I've seen cows and horse herds do. The mothers will not let a baby fend for itself. |
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| The right to bare arms has been a founding factor of this great land since the beginning. Anyone who feels they have the right to take that from us needs to run another country because they are not welcome here. My family will not be unprotected due to gun bans. |
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navyman_bosley
Posts:127
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| 18 Sep 2012 07:54 AM |
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hillmp63. Your post is ignorant and unnecessary. The talk is over whether or not fawns will survive, and whether or not it can be benefical to the herd. Ladys Home Journal? Really? Quality Deer Management is a necessity, and learning the ins and outs of such management make the deer population stronger for future hunters. If you don't care about preserving the herd or bettering yourself as a hunter, why would you read all of these posts and make such a comment? |
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| 4 years Aircraft Support Equipment Technician US Navy, Global War on Terror/Operation Iraqi Freedom, Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran. Marlin XS7C 243, federal premium 100gr, Marlin model 783 22mag tube fed bolt action, Tenpoint Titan HLX, Tenpoint carbon bolts, 100gr 3 blade spitfire, Thompson Center Black Diamond Camo stock .50 cal home made round balls, maxi balls, mini balls, and maxi hunters(maxi hunter is the way to go!) |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 18 Sep 2012 08:18 AM |
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I passed on a doe with a set of spotted twins last night; not because she had the fawns with her, but to have as buck bait in a few weeks. I also figured that a young doe with a set of twins should be a good breeding doe to keep around. Hell, if I'm hungry enough, I'd probably even kill a little deer, especially if I wasn't trying to manage my herd on my property. I did have my shotgun aimed at a big old doe Saturday while dog hunting, but a slow moving mini-van about 30 yards behind her (I was on a driveway to our skinning shed, the mini-van was on the highway), prevented me from giving that old nanny a dirt nap. When dog hunting, it's not uncommon to kill does with fawns, or even to mess up and kill a fawn, considering that they're usually running at mach 1 speeds, through thick stuff, water, and dodging trees while the hunter is shaking with adrenaline and trying to concentrate on just hitting the brown blur!!!!!!!! |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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Brian Warner
Posts:3346
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| 19 Sep 2012 07:46 AM |
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There is an old wives tale of the spot pattern on fawns that in my experience has proven somewhat accurate. In straiught lines front to back they are suually bucks, mixed up and they seem to favor the fairer sex. Or is it the other way around...dang CRS |
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| 20 Year Life Member NAHC, Whitetails Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited. Founder and owner of Heirloom Game Calls, Master call maker, Retired Airforce (22 years), Disabled Veteren, Survivor of stage 4 Esophageal Cancer, heart attack and 6 way by-pass, 2 kids, 3 grandbabies and 32+ years of marriage to the same great gal (Miss Kathy). |
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rthomas4
Posts:2343
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| 19 Sep 2012 10:05 AM |
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I seem to recall that straight lines=bucks, and no pattern=does. |
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| NRA LM, NAHC LM, Buckmasters LM, Second Amendment Foundation, GOA, NAGR, Palmetto Gun Rights, DU, NWTF, QDMA, Everyday Hunter,OYOA, ASAdspalliance,D& DH, and PROUD SC redneck REBEL for life. If the South had won the war, Obama wouldn't be in the White House. |
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Brian Warner
Posts:3346
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| 19 Sep 2012 12:35 PM |
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YUP, that's what I thought... ;-)
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| 20 Year Life Member NAHC, Whitetails Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited. Founder and owner of Heirloom Game Calls, Master call maker, Retired Airforce (22 years), Disabled Veteren, Survivor of stage 4 Esophageal Cancer, heart attack and 6 way by-pass, 2 kids, 3 grandbabies and 32+ years of marriage to the same great gal (Miss Kathy). |
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