I just found out that what should be the best (latest) part of the rut, in February, is not included in the General Gun season
on Eglin AFB's public land---only late archery/muzzleloader.  I've never used either, but since I want to add bow hunting to
my skill set anyways, I'm planning on buying one by February (preferably earlier so I can get some time in with it during
small game season).

This is the one I'm looking at buying:  http://tinyurl.com/8p27h37 (Bear Archery Apprentice 2 Ready-to-Hunt Compound Bow
Package, Realtree APG --- $279.99 from Sportsman's Guide).  The draw is adjustable between 20 and 60 lbs (minimum of
35 lbs for hunting on Eglin).  It's in my price range if I save for a couple of months.  One thing I'm looking at as far as draw
weight is my physical limits caused by my first cancer---I will almost certainly have to work my way up to the higher end.

So, here come the details on the bow I *THINK* I'm going to buy...and a lot of questions....

The notes on this say the following (none of which means anything to me, so explanations would be greatly appreciated):

* Dual rotating modular cam system... 15" to 27" draw length in 1" increments; no press or modules required
* Zero tolerance wing pockets
* Flared quad limbs

The specs are:

• 265 F.P.S.
• 6 ¹/8" brace height
• 27 ⁵/8" axle-to-axle
• 20 lbs. to 60 lbs. draw weight range
• 15" to 27" draw length range
• 70% let-off
• Contra-Band strings and cables

I have no idea if these are good or not.....

The bow package contains:

• Trophy Ridge Whisker Biscuit
• Trophy Ridge 3-pin sight
• Trophy Ridge 4-arrow quiver
• Wheel peep sight
• Nock loop.

I understand what a 3-pin sight is (well, I've seen ones with, I think, 5-pin sights), just from watching hunting shows
using bows...but the rest, no idea.  Aside from arrows and whatever the blade part at the tip is called, what else would
I need for hunting deer (average here 110 lbs)?  Along the same line, what should I consider the minimum draw
weight for our small deer?  Also, from the above, does anyone know how I would SET the draw weight?  Is this
something I could (or should?) do in the field?  Or is it a big adjustment?

So, does this look like a good beginner's bow, that would be useful for hunting our small bucks?  I'm guessing, that
since it's sold at both Cabela's and Sportsman's Guide, that it's not complete trash...but beyond that, I have no idea,
except that it SOUNDS good (I think).

Finally, any suggestions on arrows and the deadly part at the tip (I've heard the name of it, but right now my brain
is not cooperating with my attempts to retrieve it)?

Thanks,
   --jim

This is a youth bow so small stature is required or draw length will be too short . At lower weights 20 yds. or better yet under should be the max shot .Only use fixed broad heads with this bow . Should you buy it ? If that was the most I could draw and shoot , YES ! Archery is a great lifestyle for the sportsman . You'll just have to hunt with the up close limitations to make things work .

Posted By MRD on 28 Sep 2012 09:23 PM
This is a youth bow so small stature is required or draw length will be to short . At lower weights 20 yds. or better yet under should be the max shot .Only use fixed broad heads with this bow . Should you buy it ? If that was the most I could shoot , YES ! Archery is a great lifestyle for the sportsman .

That's just it...I don't know what weight I could draw.  I also have to consider the price, if I'm to use it to extend the season
this year (which is looking less and less likely, after I started to add the broadheads, arrows (those are expensive!), and the
release (and I'm betting I still missed something).  I think maybe one day I'll head out to Destin and the Bass Pro Shop
there, and see what I CAN do with a compound bow, first, before doing any mail order.

As for range, I have no idea what the ranges will be on the Eglin AFB range, whether it'll be all trees, or flat/open area,
etc...

I just went back into the bow listings, and found a PSE Talon Recurve bow ... what does "recurve" mean?  I can get it
in weights from 40--55 lb.  Is that better?  It's also less expensive.  Would it use a release like a compound bow?

Thanks,
   --jim

I've found another one (that I like better than the one I just mentioned, the recurve one). It's at

http://shop.sportsmansguide.com/net...x?a=869743

and can be ordered as 24" draw / 40-lb. draw weight, 27" draw / 55-lb. draw weight, or 29" draw / 65-lb. draw weight.

So, if I were to go in the center, at a 55 lb draw weight, what kind of range would that give me? Does the draw weight
mean it takes that much force to draw it back to shoot? Is there a good test I can do prior to ordering to get some idea
of what my maximum might be (i.e., what I could work up to by practicing with the bow...while I'm not in the field...during
January, until I get the rest of the stuff in the second order in February?

Thanks,
--jim

PS: Scratch the first one I mentioned, too. This one is much less expensive than it, so this one is, SO FAR, my new choice..... I just wish
I knew someone locally who was into bow hunting, so I could get some first-hand instruction, testing, and so on.

FIRST IF YOU NEVER SHOT A BOW BEFORE.  YOU NEED TO FIND A ARCHERY PRO SHOP THAT WILL CHECK YOUR DRAW LENGTH AND HELP YOU WITH LEARNING HOW TO SHOOT YOUR EQUIPMENT.  YOU MAY ALSO CHECK AND SEE IF THERE IS AN ARCHERY CLUB WHERE YOU LIVE, AS MOST OF THE TIME THEY WILL HELP YOU GET STARTED RIGHT.  YOU DRAW LENGTH IS A VERY IMPORTANT PART OF SHOOTING A BOW IF THE BOW DRAW LENGTH IS TO LONG YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE GETTING IT TO BRAKE OVER(DROP THE POUNDAGE SAY FORM 40 LBS TO 16-20 POUNDS DEPENDING ON THE LET OFF).  IF IT IS TOO SHORT YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE FINDING AN ANCHOR POINT(A PLACE USUALLY ON THE FACE THAT YOU TOUCH EVER TIME YOU DRAW).  I HAVE ONLY SCRATCH THE SURFACE OF WHY IF YOU ARE A NEW SHOOTER YOU NEED TO GO TO A PRO SHOP.  YOUR OTHER OPTION WOULD BE GO TO A CROSSBOW(NOT THAT I'M RECOMMENDING THAT IS THE WAY TO GO).  I HOPE THIS HELPS BUT I KNOW I DIDN'T ANSWER YOUR QUESTION AS ASKED BUT IT WILL HELP YOU IN THE LONG RUN.

A crossbow isn't really an option---during the archery seasons on Eglin AFB, crossbows are prohibited, and those are the seasons
I want to expand into.

As for an archery club or pro shop, none less than an hour or more away (except for a Bass Pro Shop).  And yes, as I said before,
I definitely wish I knew someone locally who hunts with a bow...but everyone I know who hunts uses a rifle.

Thanks,
   --jim

(and please, at least when sending to me, turn off the Caps Lock...my first cancer's 2.5 cm tumor in my occipital lobe (one
of three brain tumors with that cancer) makes it hard enough to follow text without it getting re-arranged on me, or words
moving from one line to either the one above or below, and so on...the all-caps text is literally painful to my eyes when I
try to read it, and along with that, it really makes that tumor's aftermath go nuts, making it nearly impossible to read.)

MAJOR UPDATE:  I was asking about the type of release I'd need...then I learned about the popular caliper release, and
the question went away.  Now this is just an update.

I am now seriously considering the PSE 2012 Deerhunter Infinity Package at the 55# (which, as I understand it from another
article I read, will be 55# to around 65#, which a chart in that article indicates should be about right for me, and also that
that draw weight should easily be enough for deer, and for other big game---I assume that means "within reason").

Later,
--jim

Another thought nobody mentioned. DON'T expect to buy a new set-up and go deer hunting in just a matter of days. Or weeks even. It takes a while to develop and MEMORIZE proper form and technique for shooting. Time to dial in your yardage pins. Time for your muscles to get used to the effort needed to draw, hold and release the shot. Get practicing on yardage estimating so you can figure out how far the target is. Not saying it can't be done, but you REALLY should have gotten started earlier this summer at least. A wounded deer that escapes is worse than a clean miss. Myself, I would find a set-up AT A PRO-SHOP to match your draw length and draw weight limits and shoot, shoot, shoot at targets from all ranges. Find a place that holds 3D shoots for simulated hunting shots on animal targets. Then, after you have become accustomed to your bow and your skill level with it, go deer hunting NEXT year. Just don't think you will do much good this quickly. Sorry...

Posted By David Naumann on 29 Sep 2012 08:34 AM
Another thought nobody mentioned. DON'T expect to buy a new set-up and go deer hunting in just a matter of days. Or weeks even. It takes a while to develop and MEMORIZE proper form and technique for shooting. Time to dial in your yardage pins. Time for your muscles to get used to the effort needed to draw, hold and release the shot. Get practicing on yardage estimating so you can figure out how far the target is. Not saying it can't be done, but you REALLY should have gotten started earlier this summer at least. A wounded deer that escapes is worse than a clean miss. Myself, I would find a set-up AT A PRO-SHOP to match your draw length and draw weight limits and shoot, shoot, shoot at targets from all ranges. Find a place that holds 3D shoots for simulated hunting shots on animal targets. Then, after you have become accustomed to your bow and your skill level with it, go deer hunting NEXT year. Just don't think you will do much good this quickly. Sorry...

Not to mention the fact that as I keep looking more and more into this, the price goes higher and higher....  I've learned a lot
from online archery sites since I posted this, like how to calculate your maximum draw length, matching arrows and broadheads
to the bow, and so on.

I guess that means that my entry into the late archery/muzzleloader season is a muzzleloader, not a bow.  Oh well...time to
start all over on the December and January budgets.....  Oh, and the reason I didn't start until now is simple:  I THOUGHT
the general gun season went through February, which I gather is the best part of the rut.  It doesn't.  It goes through
mid-January---still in or close to the rut, but.....  As soon as I discovered that, I was looking for a way into hunting through
February, and since I was already wanting to get into bow hunting next year, I thought I'd just get an early start.  But it's
getting clearer with every new thing I learn online and have confirmed here that A) it's just not practical, and B) it's getting
to be a financial problem, too (the stuff I need is more than I can buy before February anyways).

So, I'm off to get as much info on muzzleloaders as I can.  Hopefully, that won't be nearly as expensive.

Thanks,
   --jim

Posted By GTbrewer on 29 Sep 2012 08:47 AM


So, I'm off to get as much info on muzzleloaders as I can.  Hopefully, that won't be nearly as expensive.

Wow...that didn't take long.  :-)   I found a good .50 cal muzzleloader that's within my budget for later in the year and maybe
extending to 3 January or earlier, if that's on a weekend (including a scope add-on), and apparently, it's very easy to learn).

So I will have my way into the late archery/muzzleloader season after all.

Thanks everyone for turning me back in the direction where I'm more familiar---rifles.

Later,
   --jim

Easy to learn ? Good luck with that thought unless you're satisfied hitting a pie plate at 50 . To shoot a quarter at 100 it takes alot of load testing with both powder and projectile , and then there's sabots to throw into the mix if using them as all barrels are some what unique in BP . You have to figure out what your gun likes . When you do this task though they (at least mine) do shoot well . Nothing near throwing a shell in the modern rifle and shooting though . Good Luck in your quest .

Posted By MRD on 29 Sep 2012 06:18 PM
Easy to learn ? Good luck with that thought unless you're satisfied hitting a pie plate at 50 . To shoot a quarter at 100 it takes alot of load testing with both powder and projectile , and then there's sabots to throw into the mix if using them as all barrels are some what unique in BP . You have to figure out what your gun likes . When you do this task though they (at least mine) do shoot well . Nothing near throwing a shell in the modern rifle and shooting though . Good Luck in your quest .

Actually, I posted a reply to Big Dawg that somehow ended up in new users instead of here that gave a big update.  Here's
what was supposed to be in this group:

      

I've even found what looks like a great buy:  a CVA Buckhorn 209 Magnum .50 cal in-line muzzleloader with
scope and accessories for $224.99.  I'm not sure exactly what you need for a muzzleloader, but I get the
idea that this one starts you off with everything:

    Konus® 3-9x32 mm scope
    Essential tools
    PowerBelt Bullets and bullet starter
    Speed loaders
    Cleaning jag and patches
    Barrel Blaster™ Wonder Gel solvent
    Breech plug grease stick and brush
    Instruction manual, and the Blackpowder 101 instructional DVD, starring O'Neill Williams and Chad Schearer.

If not, it's certainly less expensive than buying all of that stuff separately.  Is there anything missing from the
above list  that I should know about?

This is the muzzleloader I'm planning on buying.  What I'm not sure of is whether or not the bullet starter is the
packet of pre-measured powder, or if that's something else I have to buy.  And, of course, the question I asked
within the quote, is anything missing from the list?   I'll be asking the same question (if I don't get an answer here)
on Monday, when Sportsman's Guide is open again.  And I've read reviews of this muzzleloader all over the 'net,
and it's virtually always referred to as a great first muzzleloader, and as being more than enough for any big game
in the US (within a set range, obviously, though I don't remember what that range was...I SEEM to recall it being
200 yards, but I'm not certain of that).

And as for shooting a quarter at 100 yards, I'm not hunting alligator.  If I hit a deer during the February rut in
the chest cavity, the shock wave alone from the .50 cal round should be enough to devastate both lungs and
the heart....  Same goes for hitting a hog in either the chest  cavity or in the spinal cord region in the neck (but
as far as that goes, I seem to recall a warning not to break the spinal cord on either deer or hogs, but I'm not
sure about that, either ... yes, as usual, cancer #1 screwing around with my memory, as it almost certainly
will for the rest of my life).

Later,
   --jim

The CVA Buckhorn 209 Starter kit should work out just fine as a first muzzleloader package. The bullet starter referenced in the list of accessories is also called a short starter. It is used to start pushing the bullet into the muzzle of the rifle. You are still going to need powder, 209 shotgun primers, and a powder measure if you're going to use granulated powder. If you're going to use the premeasured pellet powder, then you will not need the powder measure.

Be sure to clean the rifle after the days shooting session. You will also want to swab the barrel with a wet patch and then a dry patch after every couple shots.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting

Posted By grandpops on 30 Sep 2012 06:02 AM
The CVA Buckhorn 209 Starter kit should work out just fine as a first muzzleloader package. The bullet starter referenced in the list of accessories is also called a short starter. It is used to start pushing the bullet into the muzzle of the rifle. You are still going to need powder, 209 shotgun primers, and a powder measure if you're going to use granulated powder. If you're going to use the premeasured pellet powder, then you will not need the powder measure.

Be sure to clean the rifle after the days shooting session. You will also want to swab the barrel with a wet patch and then a dry patch after every couple shots.

Good Luck and Happy Hunting

Thanks for the info on the powder.  And yes, I'll definitely want the pre-measured powder pellets...based on what I've heard
(and read), that's where muzzleloaders are headed these days.  But whether that's true or not, it's at least where I plan on
starting.  :-)

I almost forgot my other question I meant to ask.....  What are fiber optics sights, and if the scope doesn't come mounted,
AND if I'm not able to make it out to a friend's place about an hour from here to use the shooting range in his back yard (he
owns enough land to safely setup a range) to sight it in, what would shooting with the fiber optic sights be like?  (I've never
even seen them...as a former telecom guy...prior to moving into Special Ops Intelligence, I know what optical fiber is, of
course, but I can't imagine how it would be used as a sight for a rifle.....)

EDIT:  Oh, one more:  What, in muzzleloading, constitutes "self-contained cartridge ammunition"?

Thanks,
   --jim

Pelleted powder is not necessarily where muzzleloaders are headed these days, it's been around for quite some time now. It cost more than granulated powder, you can not tailor your load like you can with granulated powder, and some state hunting regulations do not allow the use of pelleted powder to hunt with.

You will have to mount the scope yourself or have someone else mount it for you. Fiber optic sights utilize a fiber optic pipette mounted on the front and rear sights to gather light from the sun to make the sights show up brighter.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/18...green-rear


Nothing in "Muzzleloading" as I'm aware of constitutes "self-contained cartridge ammunition". Now in "Black Powder" firearms there are some firearms that will utilize preloaded cartridge ammunition that is loaded with Black Powder or substitute.

Posted By grandpops on 30 Sep 2012 07:00 AM
Pelleted powder is not necessarily where muzzleloaders are headed these days, it's been around for quite some time now. It cost more than granulated powder, you can not tailor your load like you can with granulated powder, and some state hunting regulations do not allow the use of pelleted powder to hunt with.

[...]

Nothing in "Muzzleloading" as I'm aware of constitutes "self-contained cartridge ammunition". Now in "Black Powder" firearms there are some firearms that will utilize preloaded cartridge ammunition that is loaded with Black Powder or substitute.

Here's the reason for the question on "self-contained..." AND a new question about the pellets---this is from the Florida Hunting
Regulations:

The only muzzleloaders that can be used during Muzzleloading Gun Season are those that take black powder or a non-nitro-cellulose substitute and are fired by wheel lock, flintlock, percussion cap or centerfire primer (including 209 primers). Muzzleloaders using smokeless powder, those that can be loaded from the breech or those with self-contained cartridge ammunition capabilities are not legal during Muzzleloading Gun Season.

Are black powder pellets "nitro-cellulose substitutes" ?  Or is that off in some far-off direction?  I would hate to buy one that
I can't legally use (the regs only state "Muzzleloading Gun Season" ... and muzzleloaders are legal in other parts of the
overall hunting season, too, so here I'm really confused as to whether these regs apply throughout the season, or just that
one part of it.

And three reasons why I would prefer the pellets:  faster (or so I'm told) to load, more consistency, and whatever the third
reason was (sorry...chemobrain does that to me sometimes...and sometimes it does that constantly ... annoying, but just
another thing I have learned to live with since my first cancer).

Thanks,
   --jim

I've continued to search, and after trying lots of different search keywords, I hit the jackpot a few times.  :-)

As to my question about smokeless powder...that's the nitro-cellulose stuff, which is not what I'm looking at.  No worries.
That was the first great hit ... I found an article describing the difference between the various black powder and substitutes.

I'll be using the Hodgdon Triple- Seven black powder pellets, Winchester 209 777 primers, and the bullets that come with
the rifle (which I'm assuming are the preferred ones for the Deerhorn), the PowerBelt .50 - cal 295 - gr. HP PowerBelt.
That was the second....finally finding A source, period (Cabelas, but that would involve hazmat shipping).

Finally, I just did a search for triple-seven pellets ... and found the pellets and the primers available locally at Bass Pro
Shop, for less money, no shipping (just a drive to Destin...and maybe a stop by a great brewpub in Destin while I'm at
it.  :-)   Oh, and again, no hazmat charges.  If they don't have them, it's free ship-to-store.  AND, I can buy lower
quantities as needed until I get my budget back in order after buying so much to get back into hunting after so long
away (after I graduated from high school, didn't have any opportunity, land to hunt on---didn't know about public
land for hunting until a few months ago), then along came my two cancers, etc....  Now, despite whatever pain I'll
be in from all of the walking, and hopefully having to do a lot of lifting for deer and hogs that I harvest, I'm taking
another part of my life back that my two past cancers would otherwise deny me.[1]  And there's no WAY I'm going
to willingly miss the best part of the rut, in February.  Now that I know the bits I need, and where to get them,
I'm on the right path.  And of course, another (hopeful) reason is all of the meat I could be adding to my freezer
that would be beef and pork that I won't have to buy...a big boost to my monthly budgets with every deer and/or
hog I shoot (and if the rabbits here are big enough, add rabbits to that).

Thanks to everyone for the helpful, positive advice,
   --jim

[1] Sun Tzu wrote:  Therefore the clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will
to be imposed on him.

In this case, the enemy is my first cancer's long-term//permanent aftermath...low energy levels which, when exhausted,
drop from about 70% of normal to 0 like a lead brick, damage to my lungs (was down to next to 0%, now up to about
60% of normal), and other stuff that's addressed with two injections that I give myself every other Saturday morning,
and Synthroid every morning (replacement thyroid hormone).  The aftermath of the three brain tumors, three brain
surgeries, and whole-brain max-dose radiation therapy affect me more here...no so much in the field.  And finally,
one other important fact relating to the above quote from Sun Tzu's The Art Of War:  The score:  Me:  2  Cancer:  0