With all the media attention on firearms, I personally am not comfortable calling any firearms weapons. Weapon brings forth visions of shooting people and being used against something. As a seller of firearms, I insist that those working with me don't call any gun a weapon when talking with a customer. I also tell customers that refer to them as weapons that we sell sporting arms, not weapons. I feel that it is our responsibility as firearm owners to keep as low a profile about guns as possible. I hunt many species of game, both large and small, but have never felt the need to defend myself from any of them to the point that my firearm was deemed a weapon in my mind. I also teach my Hunter Ed. students to call them firearms or sporting arms when talking to others. This is just my opinion, but thought i'd throw it out for comment.
Steve Albers,
NAHC Life Member, Hunter and Bowhunter Ed. Instructor, Hunter, Patriot

Well put salbers! I shall conform to that myself.

What part of the country is your business?

Please don't tell me that you also "harvest" your wild game, instead of killing it! My firearms serve multiple purposes, if hunting or shooting, then it's a sporting arm, if it's for personal protection, then it's a weapon! And I harvest vegetables and I kill deer!

The biggest problem I see from gun enthusiasts and hunters is that we try to play the PC game and act as apologists, instead of dealing with our enemies head on.  I'm with Uncle Ted on this topic, in that we don't need to apologize for our actions or our beliefs, and by taking the apologetic attitude of not calling a gun what it is, then we have already lost part of the battle.   Instead of refusing to acknowledge that we use weapons to kill game, but not emphasizing the fact that "assault" weapons don't exist outside of police and military use, we are failing in our duty to educate our detractors.  Cajoling your employees, customers, and students to use PC terms isn't going to change the anti-gun crowds attitudes, nor is it being fair and honest.

Thanks for your insight rthomas4, first off, let me tell you I have fought for and will continue to fight for my rights to the death if need be. And yes I agree, my firearms can be used as weapons the same as yours. I however am a hunter and don't feel the need to use military or self defenseive force on the game I hunt. The military issued me weapons, and explained the difference between them and a gun quite well. Those weapons were just that, to be used to defend period. Nobody knows better than I that so called assult weapons are the same firearms with different stocks, and appertnances added to them. Yes they can be and are used to hunt game, and for most this is thier primary use. So far as cajoling people, that is crap. Why give the anti's any additional ammo to lie to the uneducated public, and possibly sway them to that side of the fence? Do you call a pocket knife, fork or kitchen knife or motor vehicle a weapon? They can also be used to kill. Yes I have been door to door carrying a petition to defend our gun rights. And no I don't harvest game, once I pull the trigger or release the arrow and the animal is dead it has been killed. Not all of us are so damn defensive when our opinion differs from someone else's. I am not nor have I ever been what I would consider a ratical, however as stated earlier, I will defend all my rights and in doing so I also defend your's. Why be confrontational, when it could backfire on you. This is what the anti-gun groups want, the will use any tool they can to get our guns, and i refuse to give them any ammo.
Steve Albers

I tend to agree with rthomas4. I use whatever term seems appropriate, same as I call a motorcycle a bike or 2 wheeler or rice rocket. I don't go out of my way to antagonize someone with my choice of words but if we{1}*****foot around the term weapon because it is 'bad' then a whole generation of people will grow up thinking weapons are 'bad' because that is the only connotation they've ever seen.

Tell a lie often enough and it becomes the truth. (or something like that)

Dale

Whoa, there Steve! You asked for comments after stating you personal opinion. All I did was reply with my opinion, not an attack against you. I do have a point of contention with your last post when you state "that so called assault weapons are the same firearms with different stocks, and appertnances(sp) added to them". That is exactly the misconception that the antis are spreading. An assault weapon has a selector switch on it that allows single, bursts, or full automatic fire, and those weapons(since you are a dealer I'm sure you are aware) are already regulated by the Feds. And none of those type of weapons are used in this country to kill any type of game as you well know, since you are a hunter ed instructor.

My opinion is simply as stated, no sugar coating of facts, and no attempts to be politically correct since those are simply being apologetic and that is what helps to feed the antis. The point you make about knives, kitchen knives, forks, or motor vehicles is exactly why I complain when people want to ban any type of weapon. Since motor vehicles kill more people daily, why don't we ban them? Does that make sense? Absolutely not, so the idea of banning guns, regardless of an individual's concept of whether they are weapons or not is just as ridiculous, so why even play into the antis little name blame game!?!?!?! It isn't confrontational to be realistic and go with the facts, rather than try to phrase things in a manner that is apologetic and sounds like azz kissing. Like I said, I go along with Uncle Ted and his stance on this particular subject.

May I politely suggest that in the future if you don't actually want to hear other's opinions, then don't bother asking for them!!!!!!!!!!! BTW, it appears that it was your response that was "so damn defensive".

I'm with rt. Way too much PC crap... BUT I also agree with a person in the gun/bow/whatever sales business calling them firearms. I think as RT indicated, it depends on how the term is being used. If I'm going to hunt an animal, my {insert your rifle, pistol, shotgun, whatever here} is a firearm. If I pull it out to nail some a-hole breaking into my home or attacking me or my family; it's a weapon. Same gun, the only difference in the description is it's use.

Just to cause a little more trouble. One thing that burns me up (me personally, I am well aware that the world is not here to make me happy, so if you disagree, it’s ok by me) is that we are so stinking PC that we have turned the 2nd amendment into the recreation amendment. The primary purpose of the 2nd amendment is not to protect our right to own sporting arms for hunting, target shooting, competitions etc. it is to make sure that the people have the right to "keep and bear" weapons so that the US has a population that is a "well regulated militia" because it is "necessary [for] the security of a free state". As I see it the primary purpose of the 2nd amendment is to protect my right to have access to and own weapons not firearms as described in previous posts because it is focused on military weapons, not my sporting arms. Now I am in no way saying that my sporting arms are not included as they are very useful in making me a better shot, but the main focus is weapons for fighting.

The anti’s want to take away guns because guns are evil in their sight. No matter what you call a gun, a gun is evil. We use words that are less offensive to them they will just change the argument to still push for no guns, so do not agree that we make it easy for them. I agree with rt that when we change to suit them we have lost part of the argument. Governments when given absolute authority have always turned evil. History proves that. Our founding fathers knew that and wanted to make sure that the people had weapons to keep out government at bay. We continue to have our right to keep weapons eroded and some day when we are reduced to .22’s and and ocational shot gun because that is all we need for recreation, we to will be on the ash heap of history ending with an evil government with no freedom left for its subjects.

dang what a rant.

my 2.5 cents.

That is a long way of saying I agree with rt and steve.

This one caught my attention!!!
Just for cgizts and grins, I asked Mr. Webster is give a defination of the following words: WEAPON, Kill, and HARVEST.
MR. Webster repied, and I quote, KILL= " To put to death. To deprive of life. To put an end to; extinguish". HARVEST= "The act or process of gathering a crop". WEAPON= " An instrument used in offensive or defensive combat. A part of the body, such as an animal's horns, or claws, that is used in attack or defense. a means employed to disarm, persuade, or get the better of another".
No where in Webster's Dictionary was Firearms, Guns, Rifles, Pistols, or knives mentioned.
The way I interpret this is: I use my Rifle/gun/firearm to KILL an animal I wish to eat. I HARVEST the plants that grow, which I, Nature, or some other person has planted to sprout from a seed to mature and produce a product for HARVEST.
I have not used a WEAPON in my life, BUT!!! there is a sign on my Front Door that says: The owner of this property is armed and is prepared to protect life, property, and liberty from Criminal attack. NOTICE: There is NOTHING on these premises worth trading your Life for.
SO? When is a "Firearm" a WEAPON? Ans: When you break down my front door to steal, rob, rape, maime, destroy, and/or deprive me of what's mine, and your brains have to be cleaned up off my carpet. Then my "GUN" can be considered a weapon.
Just My Position on the subject and defined By Mr. Webster.

SALBERS, I agree with what you have to say. This subject has been discussed on here many times, usually ending up in hard feelings and arguments between members. As a firearms instructor, working primarily with our youth, I too try to enforce that the firearms we use for sporting activities are not weapons. Call them what ever you want, firearms, sporting arms, rifles, shotguns, pistols, guns or whatever else you want, but they are not being used as a weapon and therefore should not be referred to as a weapon. Firearms used for protection or defense, such as those used by the military and law enforcement, are used as weapons. When I first started teaching the shooting sports to our youth, many parents were concerned that I was going to teach little Johnny or Sally how to shoot weapons, and therefore they didn't want their child involved in our shooting sports programs. It was only through educating the parents the difference between weapons and sporting arms that we are now running a very successful program for the our area youth.
I'm not saying all firearms are not weapons. I was issued a weapon during my military service. I carry a firearm as a weapon daily, but it's not what I use to hunt with, or what I use to shoot clay pigeons with, or what I use to poke holes in paper with, or even what I use to plink at cans with. If it's use is as a weapon, then fine call it a weapon, if not then don't. And I'm not apologizing to anyone or kissing anyone azz.
The antis and the media wants the word weapon on the mind of the general public any time a firearm is involved to instill fear in the mind of the uneducated public. To refer to all firearms as weapons is only playing into the hands of their agenda.

grandpops,
Yeh!!! BUD,
THAT is what I was trying to say. A GOOD SMOOTH ROCK can be a weaopn, but it can NEVER be a GUN.

I have three weapons that stay with me and the wife all the times .The rest are all firearms used for hunting and plinking at the range .Enough said .It depends on what the firearm is used for .

I have sporting arms and I have Homeland Defense Weapons. I see nothing wrong with either one of them. If you do, that's your problem.

Now that no one is going to make me do push ups, I call my rifle what I grew up calling it, my gun, I have guns for protection and guns for hunting. A weapon is any object you use againest an opponant. Many guns we use, were at one time first used by the Militery. An assult weapon (Rifle) more on the line of a carbine, is a light, short, easly wheeled, full auto Or as RT said selective fire. It is still a gun no more powerful or deadly than any other gun, so to speak. It is called a weapon when used to take or protect an objective.  Then you have the Assult style gun, which is no more deadly, powerful than any other gun, we do what ever it is we like doing with them. But I don't think it matters what they are called by the hard core antis, They want them out of our hands. The best thing we can do is promote gun safety, when ask, or given the oppertunity to explain, do so in as informive, non-confrontatoinal manor possible. And offer to let them shoot a gun, promoteing safty without being insulting. Most people who have never shot a gun, really do want to. Fear and the fear of imbarassment hold them back. Get past that, And most once they have, are hooked. This is JMHO.

holy beejeezus! Now thats the real question.The way i figure it A slingshot is a weapon..If the tangible object is used in an offensive way then its a weapon..If you come and break into my house my "sporting arm", .22, 308, bolt action becomes a weapon. I agree the pc crap has got to go...If you make it out of my house, "its a sporting arm." If you dont ,,,then its a "shootin iron"..lol

Sorry if I came off a bit strong, wasn't trying to ruffle your feathers rthomas4. I fully know and understand that any firearm can be used as a weapon, however I am sick and tired of having to fight with an uninformed, knee jerk group that want's our guns everytime someone is shot. I don't sugar coat anything, and refuse to appologize to anyone for owning or using guns for any lawful purpose. In the eyes of those that know nothing about guns the AR15's, A400, Sigs etc. are all assult weapons in spite of being semi-automatic arms. I don't know how to educate these people aside from telling them they are not weapons, but sporting arms. If you have a better way of educating them please tell me. I feel it is my responsibility as a gun owner to pull as many people as possible to our side in this battle, and will continue not refer to them as weapons regardless of what "Uncle Ted" feels about it. Yes if I shoot someone with one of my guns or bows, I used it as a weapon. But the purpose of my owning guns is mainly for hunting and target shooting activities and any of them are also capable of being used defensively. As for the 2nd Amendment, I know what the meaning is and I fully support it.

Its all a bunch of BS every object can be used as a weapon my guns are for hunting and recreational shooting and home protection and will not become weapons unless some scumbag comes to hurt me or my family

How do you think it would change the image of the AR style firearm, to the inventors name, like so many other gun manufactures do. Instead of AR call it the Stoner.

we would not be having this discussion if America would have done the right thing in November and voted out the gun grabbers

The only way I have found to stop all the BS from gun haters is to teach them. When they find out you can't shoot 600yds and hit with a stubby pistol they learn that TV and newspapers lie to them. I have spent time with people against guns , might have not changed their minds but they have a better understanding and can sort out the crap that the media spins. A gun is just a tool, like any other. Take any tool and throw it on the ground and it will NEVER hurt anyone UNTIL a person picks it up. In other words it takes people to hurt people. Most big cities see ONLY the murders in their city. They never see hunting, shooting sports. or ANY of the ways a gun SAVED life. Educating the people is the only way I found to gain acceptance. Heck most can't even tell a shotgun from a rifle, much less a semi auto from a full auto.

lol gun grabbers...........................................like to see some one grab my guns.....................then i guess we will see how many firearms are weapons. 2nd amendmant grants the right to firearms and makes it illegal to infringe upon that right ..............witch makes it illegal for them take your guns or make laws to help them take your gun rights .......witch is why i dont agree with pistol permits. i have to get a permit for a side arm but crimials can just buy them on the streets. how does that make sence or make any one any safer......................it doesnt

lol gun grabbers...........................................like to see some one grab my guns.....................then i guess we will see how many firearms are weapons. 2nd amendmant grants the right to firearms and makes it illegal to infringe upon that right ..............witch makes it illegal for them take your guns or make laws to help them take your gun rights .......witch is why i dont agree with pistol permits. i have to get a permit for a side arm but crimials can just buy them on the streets. how does that make sence or make any one any safer......................it doesnt

lol gun grabbers...........................................like to see some one grab my guns.....................then i guess we will see how many firearms are weapons. 2nd amendmant grants the right to firearms and makes it illegal to infringe upon that right ..............witch makes it illegal for them take your guns or make laws to help them take your gun rights .......witch is why i dont agree with pistol permits. i have to get a permit for a side arm but crimials can just buy them on the streets. how does that make sence or make any one any safer......................it doesnt

zgrimshaw welcome to the boards. I gather you are a Fire Fighter. Good thing, things can get heated in here from time to time. Be prepare to have your opinion slammed from time to time, but like water on Bunker Gear let it roll off and enjoy. Lot good guys here, and you will lock horns at times, but it passes.

thnx

zgrimshaw if you think gun grabbers are a myth like Obama Claus then you better open your eyes because they are everywhere and are working hard to abolish the 2nd amendment it is coming and it is closer than you think

Zgrimshaw. Healey is one of the good ones, and was easy on you. I think he missunderstood your youthful type A personality which most FF have and believing you can take on the world and win, as not believeing there are gun grabbers. You have just been slammed twice rooky. You are welcome to slam back, but be respectful, there may be others who have been doing your job much longer than you.

Thanks ckell I am just amazed at the fact that people don't get this gun grabber agenda out there Heller passed the high court by a razor thin vote and if sorry not if when Obama appoints another justice and the supreme court visits the 2nd amendment again and they will they will rule the 2nd does not give the individual the right to keep and bear arms. And we will all become felons overnight we will see first hand how are the ones who will have their guns pried form their cold dead hands

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

a gun is not a weapon....it is a tool....... a bat can be a weapon, or it can be a tool to hit a ball, we are talkin about objects that have no intent, they are tools...until these wack-job gun haters see that, mabey they will realize that guns dont kill.., they need to be picked up, aimed, and the trigger pulled, while we are at it, lets blame spoons for making us fat....

WOW, 8 posts and 7 of them are a repeat in this one thread!!!!!!! That beats gutpile's record!!!!!!!!!

 Posted By rthomas4 on 21 Dec 2012 07:44 PM
WOW, 8 posts and 7 of them are a repeat in this one thread!!!!!!! That beats gutpile's record!!!!!!!!!

He don't have me beat .Ask LD I had 9 .So there .He has a long way to go .

well said its total BS that we the law abiding citizens always take the heat when some nut job goes off the deep end and for people to blame the NRA is just ludicrous. I knew it was just going to take one more mass killing for Obama to go on his rampage on gun control it was just a matter of time for it to happen I bought a new AR and several high cap mags the day before this despicable act of violence

Any government that can become fast and furious needs a counter balance and the 2nd amendment is that for us. Fight for it ladies and gentlemen. Words can be a weapon too and your vote, lets use them FIRST. Remember those elected officials that try to destroy our means and will to keep them honest do not deserve to be our representatives.

I have a rifle not a gun. This is my rifle this is my gun. One is for fighting and one is for fun. All guns are weapons not all weapons are guns.

It's simply both a choice of wording and what the firearmn is used for. When hunting and recreational shooting it is simply a rifle or firearm and IMO is only called a weapon when used as an offensive device against another human being. As noted by GP in the military a rifle is a weapon and a gun is an artillery piece. Again a choice or wording gives meaning to it's use.

I agree Big Dawg, and wording is what the media and gun grabbers are all about. Call it a weapon they will put it on a list and try to take it. They aren't looking for assult guns or assult firearms, everything they want is an assult weapon. Regardless of whether it is a semi-automatic pump or bolt action rifle, shotgun, or pistol if we call them a weapon they will take it to task. They don't care about the Second Amendment or any other rights, they are self-serving and want mor laws that won't work. We have laws on the books already to control everything we do in life, being a responsible gun owner is key in preventing tragedies and if the courts dealt with things on a proper level instead of turning their heads, we would not be fighting for our rights again.

Next time I play golf I'll be sure to carry my bag of weapons, you know irons and woods. Then when the softball team starts practicing I'll take a few of those Louisville weapons for them to use in batting practice, I'll carry all of that in my 1/2 ton weapon that I drive.

Posted By rthomas4 on 26 Dec 2012 04:13 PM
Next time I play golf I'll be sure to carry my bag of weapons, you know irons and woods. Then when the softball team starts practicing I'll take a few of those Louisville weapons for them to use in batting practice, I'll carry all of that in my 1/2 ton weapon that I drive.

Very good point RT, Maybe we should all try a little harder in our use of words when talking about Fireams. Even though we know it is BS. Or at least point the differance out when we hear the words misused.

Ya know rt, you've given me an idea. I think I'm going to stir the pot a little next year as my grandkids get back into their ball seasons. I'm going to get vocal about them putting a weapon in my kids hands and teaching them how to be deadly accurate with it. Reckon we could get the Louisville Slugger classified as an assault weapon?
I guess I need to get started doing a little research on injuries and fatalities involving a bat, club, stick, or anything else that could be used in the same manner as a bat.

Grandpops you could followup with a demo of how easily a baseball bat could be made into an atlatl.

With the word " assualt " being a verb it can be put in front of anything that can be used to kill another human being. And the oldest murder weapon in the world are the ones we use eveyday and those being our hands !!! It is such a bad use of english to use the word " assault " when describing anything other than the act itself.

Posted By Big Dawg on 28 Dec 2012 07:05 AM 
And the oldest murder weapon in the world are the ones we use eveyday and those being our hands !!! 

Don't give em any ideas, next they'll be wanting to take away our hands.

holly, suggested someone should "assault" Feinstein's vagina, whereas I firmly believe she needs an old fashioned azz fuggin', to adjust her attitude. Can we please get a volunteer!!!!!!!!!!!

all them{1}*****'s are ugly scags and no one I know would touch them with a 10 foot pole

She's from Calif. Holly, guess you been elected. But I really think it's too late for that. Done been overrun with fruit flys when she was Mayor in S.F., we need to clean house in D.C. and start over, no common sence, no office. Get the rich out of control in our government, we need people that care about people, not lining their already deep pockets.

Posted By gutpile on 22 Dec 2012 09:19 AM
I have a rifle not a gun. This is my rifle this is my gun. One is for fighting and one is for fun. All guns are weapons not all weapons are guns.

Gut,

Perfect !!!

I really like this....................did you make this up yourself ?

its a line from the movie Platoon

Hmmm - is actually much older than that. The Drill Sargent I had in 1966 made us say that over and over again until we called "the instrument" by its proper name - rifle. We NEVER used the term gun and had never heard the term assault weapon. "AW" is a new term. As for "weapon" we never used that term either, not for guns, not for artillery, not for ordnance, not for anything. That is today's words - as in W's "weapons of mass destruction".

It goes back to Paris Island and troop training prior to WWII, according to a retired DI I know. It particularly gained popularity during the Viet Nam era, also according to the gunny. This particular one was one of Travis' NJROTC instructors, until he retired again.

Hey Gut, our D.I. made a guy march around the barracks naked for about an hour holding his rifle and saying "this is my rifle this is my gun, this is for fighting this is for fun" as he pointed to his member and his rifle. He had called his rifle a gun in front of the D.I., nobody else made that mistake..

That saying has been around for a long long long time i first heard from my father over 50 yr's ago he learned it in the 30's as a drill srgt. in the army

Well, thank the Lord for all the DI's.


Saved a lot of lives !!!

Here's my take on the subject.  I have a real problem the term assault weapon being used for military looking rifles.  If it has a selecter switch from semi to auto,and it functions. Then, ok. It's an assault rifle.  Notice that I said rifle. Not weapon.  If you come to my home and start an issue where I may have to defend my home or family against you.  The first thing I'm going to grab is the fireplace poker unless you have a gun in your hands.  As soon as I've grabbed that poker.  I have just turned it into an assault weapon because I'm fixing to assault you with it.  If I picked up a rock and threw it at you .  Then I've just turned that rock into an assault weapon.  Anything you use to attack another person with is technically an assault weapon. Including a car. That happens every day several times a day.  You see people doing it on the streets all the time.  Using they're SUV's or pick up trucks to intimidate other drivers.  Maybe they should be taken to jail also.  They are using those vehicles as assault weapons.
As for cannons go.
Artillery actually has two different terminologies
A rifle is a direct fire weapon.  Such as the cannon on a tank.
The real artillery is an indirect fire cannon. That cannon is called a howitzer.
As far as Dippy Fienstien goes.  I would even keep my dogs away from her.  Don't know what ever kind of disease she's carrying.

Boy, this subject caused a stink.Good material.

Depends on who's behind it and what their intention's are, all sporting arms have the potential to become weapons.