Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 19 Jun 2012 09:29 PM |
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I was looking for some insight from someone who has actually taken a moose with a muzzleloader. I would like to know what kind of rifle you were shooting, powder type and load, bullet type and weight, distance of shot, where hit, how far did it go, etc. I drew a Colorado muzzleloader bull moose tag this year and I have a 50 cal T/C Hawken. We cannot use sabots, pelletized powder, or scopes here in CO, but I plan to use about 120 gr FFG Triple Seven with 370 gr T/C Maxi's and am wondering how that compares and any other advice from to someone who has already taken a moose. Thanks in advance. |
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grandpops
Posts:397
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| 20 Jun 2012 03:55 AM |
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Welcome to the board Orion/CO. I haven't hunted moose, but concerning your rifle, you might want to back off that powder charge a bit. I too have a T/C Hawken 50 cal. muzzleloader, and the owner"s manual cautions against black powder loads in excess of 110 grains. Triple 7 runs hotter than black powder by approximately 15%. So 120 grains of 777 would be about the equivalent of 138 grains of black powder. I have also heard 777 does not ignite well in a side lock action, I haven't tried it in mine. http://www.tcarms.com/assets/manual...Manual.pdf |
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| Fred, Cleburne, Tx.
NRA Life Member, NAHC Life Member, DU, USN Vet, NRA Certified Instructor
"A gun is like a parachute.
If you need one, and don't have one,
you'll probably never need one again." |
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PA RIDGE RUNNER
Posts:93
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| 20 Jun 2012 08:52 AM |
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I agree with Grandpops. That much 777 powder, if you get consistent ignition that is, may push the maxi ball down the barrel without it gripping the rifling destroying accuracy. I do know what a maxi ball will do to a deer in a 1/48 twist with 80 grains of 3f goex black powder. My son hit a deer with that load and it punched right through resulting in a quick kill. His accuracy is quite good too. |
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Shiloh
Posts:552
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| 20 Jun 2012 09:16 AM |
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 Man! That is a dream hunt of mine. I want to hunt moose someday and using my Hawken would just be icing on the cake. My only advice is to go for reliable repeatable accuracy more than any perceived benefits of nuclear loads. There is absolutely no reason to think you need to rupture the space-time continum with magnum powder charges. If you hit a moose at short to medium ranges with a decent bullet in the right spot you are going to bore a 1/2" diameter hole deep into its vitals. Nothing on earth will live long with a hole like that in its lungs. I'd strongly advise a non or little-expanding slug to get maximum penetration. Mushrooms don't penetrate as well. Practice with some differnet bullets on a medium like tightly bound and soaked phone books at different ranges to find the most reliable and accurate load and then study penetration at various ranges to determine your max range. Have fun! |
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| I like my guns towed & crew-served!
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 21 Jun 2012 08:55 PM |
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grandpops - intersting point about the powder load. It's been a while since I have hunted with my Hawken and the last time I did I used regular black powder. I have taken several deer and one elk with that rifle, but since it has been a while so I decided to get some fresh powder, caps, and slugs. All that gun store had was Pyrodex or Triple-Seven, and the the Triple-seven looked pretty good, but I honestly haven't read the side of the can yet to see if recommended different loads and I haven't had a chance to shoot it yet. However, I do want to shoot the maximum load for maximum penetration or a pass-through shot. That's why I want to hear from someone who has had actual experience with a shooting a moose. Yes, I know I can kill a 200 pound deer with it, but I will be hunting something that is 1,000 pounds with a lot thicker bones than a deer or elk. Thanks again for the advice. |
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grandpops
Posts:397
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| 22 Jun 2012 02:46 AM |
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According to the T/C owner's manual, they list 100 grains black powder as the maximum load with the 370 gr. Maxi's. I attached a link to the T/C manual in my previous post. Here is a link to the Triple 7 data. http://hodgdon.com/tripleseven.htmlI know it's not moose, but I elk hunt with 90grns. black powder and a 320grn. Lee R.E.A.L. bullet. It'll poke a hole plumb through em. |
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| Fred, Cleburne, Tx.
NRA Life Member, NAHC Life Member, DU, USN Vet, NRA Certified Instructor
"A gun is like a parachute.
If you need one, and don't have one,
you'll probably never need one again." |
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gutpile
Posts:483
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| 22 Jun 2012 07:41 AM |
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The maximum powder load isn't always the best load. Yeah you'll probably get max velocity and energy but end up with sheit accuracy. And of all the factors I look at with a smokepole is accuracy. So start with the max load and see what kind of group you get and if needed back down 5gr until you get desired results. Remember also in the late 1600s they were killing moose with a patched round ball. |
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| Liberals Negate Darwinian Theory
Kishel's Scent and Lures www.kishelscents.com |
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cayugad
Posts:96
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| 22 Jun 2012 09:28 PM |
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There are some loads you can safely and accurately shoot out of your T/C Hawkins with enough power for moose. The key is of course penetration of the projectile, but also accuracy. I would also advise against the 120 grain loads. Instead go to a lighter powder charge
and a heavy conical bullet. There are some conicals for a .50 caliber out there that do shoot well out of a 1-48 twist and you don't need to over power the load. I shoot a 460 grain conical bullet. No Excuses out of Roy Utah sells them. He also sells 495 grain. As many can tell you, a heavy conical bullet even with a moderate powder charge will penetrate, expand and kill game.
This was a chunk of very solid popular fire wood. With only 65 grains of 2f Triple Seven, a 460 grain conical penetrated 8 inches. Now granted a moose is very solid, but so is popular wood.
This is that conical removed from the wood. Notice it retained its weight, even though the conical is pure lead. Also the expansion is very impressive. If you drill a hole that size through a moose's heart, I guarantee that moose will die.
I have shot them out of my 1-48 twist T/C Renegade .50 caliber with 80 grains of Triple Seven 2f. The accuracy out to 50 yards (as far as I tried them) was exceptional. And I could only guess the expansion and penetration that would have made. I remember a forum member .. I think it was Shiloh once commented on the penetration of a minnie ball with 60 grains of powder. And these conicals, while not a minne would also act in a similar manner. Penetrate and then expand.
This is the route I would go. A heavy conical bullet, and a manageable powder charge that provides good accuracy. Maybe a peep sight on that Hawkins and you could shoot some longer distances. Just my thoughts on your question. |
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Two Tales
Posts:214
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| 24 Jun 2012 08:53 AM |
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like Gut said, they kilt'em using patched RBs not so many years ago...and using the best load fer their guns..generally 50-60 gr BP (which at the time was not as refined as that of today...) as far as reliability of ignition with 777 in a side lock..I have been using it for years with no problems...this past May..we held a Lady's Day at the club..using my T/C "New Englander" fitted with a hotshot nippel using 50gr 777 pushing the .490 patched RB the girls shot over 100 rounds without a single ignition malfunction...I did run a brush and a patch down the barrle after 50 rounds this year...ya'll have lots of time get some pills and feed the beast until ya find what works best...and DAMNit I envious of your luck... |
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| Two Tales
Around the ragged edge on the rim of reality!
LM, DAV, Ret USN, Chief Instructor CE/FS, NRA Instructor |
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rburrows6
Posts:780
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| 24 Jun 2012 06:27 PM |
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Granpops mentioned loads in the owners manual which is a good reference guide And Gutpile is right they were killing moose and grizzlies not too long ago with patched ball . I have two .50's that shoot only PRB's but my .54 Thompson Hawken prefers 425gr Hornady Great Plains bullets with 110grs of Pyrodex P .It shoots very flat and at 50yds five rounds go through the same hole with iron sights. The Great Plains bullets alsocome with a Caliber specific load chart. I have two bullets that I have managed to recover from deer that were shot from the front of the chest with the bullets lodging in the ham, estimated bullet penetration is about 36-40 inches. Expanded diameter was approximately .850. Everything shot broadside gives complete pass through. |
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 24 Jun 2012 09:53 PM |
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Cayugad - Thanks for the information. I went to No Excuses website and ordered 2 boxes of the 460 gr slugs. As soon as they arrive I can't wait to try them out. The downside is that because of the severe dry conditions around here they have closed the national forest and national grassland to all target shooting., so I need to find a new place to go shoot.
I appreciate the input from others, but if you really want to get technical, native americans have been killing moose for thousands of years with stone arrowheads and handmade bows. So yes, there are lots of things that can kill a moose, but in order to ensure the quickest and most humane method I want something with the highest probability for a double lung pass through shot. I may be over thinking this, but part of the challenge of using a muzzleloader is getting within 100 yards and only having 1 shot (and with iron sights) to get the job done on a 1,000 pound animal. I really do not want to have to track down a wounded animal or worse yet, having to get into a willow thicket with only one shot to come face to face with a wounded and PO'd bull moose. |
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Shiloh
Posts:552
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| 25 Jun 2012 11:12 AM |
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Posted By Orion/CO on 24 Jun 2012 10:53 PM
, but in order to ensure the quickest and most humane method I want something with the highest probability for a double lung pass through shot. I may be over thinking this, but part of the challenge of using a muzzleloader is getting within 100 yards and only having 1 shot (and with iron sights) to get the job done on a 1,000 pound animal. I really do not want to have to track down a wounded animal or worse yet, having to get into a willow thicket with only one shot to come face to face with a wounded and PO'd bull moose.
You are correct and therefore you want your 1 and only shot to be the single most reliably accurate shot - not the coolest bullet nor mightiest powder charge. All those cool bullet designs and super velocities are wasted if the gun is not reliable to fire and accurate with the load. |
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| I like my guns towed & crew-served!
http://www.nps.gov/stri/
http://www.blockaderunner.com/
http://www.9thky.org/
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PA RIDGE RUNNER
Posts:93
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| 26 Jun 2012 03:47 AM |
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I mentioned the possibility of faulty ignition because 777 was specifically designed to ignite with the powerful 209 shotgun primer. You may not have any problems but if you do then your rifle does not like the 777. As mentioned several times before hunt with your accuracy load because you can load up enough powder to stop a freight train but if you cannot hit it what good is the load. Also keep in mind that the powder form of 777 is 15% stronger than real BP but the pelletized form of 777 is not stronger. I certainly would not consider the pelletized form of 777 or any other pelletized powder in a sidelock percussion as pellets are designed to ignite from the rear and percussion and flintlocks mostly are delivering the fire from the side. Have fun getting your rifle and load ready for your hunt and be confident you can hit a ticks ear at your furtherest yardage you are comfortable shooting. Good luck and save us a steak. |
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David Asche
Posts:64
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| 06 Jul 2012 02:21 AM |
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The moose in Colorado are the "Shiras" variety. Smaller then the ones we have up here in AK, so if you can use a good elk load, you'll do OK. |
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 05 Aug 2012 12:05 AM |
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To make a long story short, the fires in CO back in June caused a ban on all target shooting on national forest/grasslands. The ban was finally lifted Aug 2, so this morning I made it out to fire up the old muzzleloader (T/C Hawken) and try out the 460 gr 50 cal slugs fron No Excuses which Cayugad had recommended. I used 90 gr triple seven powder (as also recommended by other members). The first shot at 25 yards from a bench rest was dead on, the second shot at 50 yards was about an inch low, so I raised the sight 2 clicks and tried the 100 yard target. 1 inch high, right at at 12:00. I took a few more shots at 100, and even in a sitting position with shooting sticks, I was still within a 3" circle - with iron sights. I will get out to shoot it at least one more time, but given the results this morning I am confident on the accuracy of my rifle and loads out to 100-125 yards. My moose hunt starts in just 4 weeks away, so Im starting to get excited. Thanks again for all the input from fellow members!
P.S. - I was shooting a TC Hawken with #11 caps and Triple Seven powder, and all shots (about 8) went off without a problem, so to those who said that Triple Seven is designed for shotgun primers, I never had a problem using my caps, and acccuracy is also not an issue with this set-up (which was also argued by some) |
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grandpops
Posts:397
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| 05 Aug 2012 04:04 AM |
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Glad it's coming together for ya. Get out there as much as you can between now and your hunt, and practice a quick reload and follow-up shot just in case. I always want to know where that first shot is going to hit from a cold, clean, lubed barrel and where the next shot will hit from a warm, fouled barrel. I don't swab the barrel between shots when I'm out hunting until after the second shot, so far I've only needed one shot so the second shot usually occurs on my way back to my truck to put the rifle and game away.
Good luck with your hunt. |
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| Fred, Cleburne, Tx.
NRA Life Member, NAHC Life Member, DU, USN Vet, NRA Certified Instructor
"A gun is like a parachute.
If you need one, and don't have one,
you'll probably never need one again." |
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PA RIDGE RUNNER
Posts:93
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| 05 Aug 2012 09:55 AM |
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I by no means meant to say that 777 will not fire using #11 caps but I personally know several people that tried the substitutes and did not get consistent fire. I personally keep it simple and use only readily available in PA real bp. I do much of my front loader hunting with a flintlock so have stuck with old school bp for all my shooting. |
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 13 Oct 2012 10:32 PM |
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Here is my Colorado muzzleloader bull moose and cow elk taken back in September with my 50 cal TC Hawken and 460 gr No Excuses bullets and 100 gr Triple 7. The moose was at 105 yards and the elk at less than 50 yards |
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 13 Oct 2012 10:37 PM |
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Oops, my first attempt worked |
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Steve
Posts:1681
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| 14 Oct 2012 06:19 AM |
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Nice double! Congratulations on your success - looks like a winning formula. ;-) |
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| Steve:
OSOK - Poughkeepsie, NY |
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holly
Posts:2234
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| 14 Oct 2012 09:45 AM |
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Good going on those two . |
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cayugad
Posts:96
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| 14 Oct 2012 10:34 AM |
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Excellent harvest there. Great looking animals. That is a nice looking moose. And some excellent shooting there. Looks like you have a real winning combination of powder and bullet.
I am glad that the No Excuse conicals worked so well for you. Did they expand like you thought they would? Also what kind of penetration did you get with them. Large Conical bullets are one of my favorite projectiles. I have been casting a new bullet as of late. It is a 450 grain UC Short Mag.
I will be trying them in some of my Hawken rifles to see how they do as well. Again, Congratulations on your moose and elk. |
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PA RIDGE RUNNER
Posts:93
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| 14 Oct 2012 06:39 PM |
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Congratulations on your hunt. You have every reason to smile. |
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grandpops
Posts:397
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| 14 Oct 2012 11:16 PM |
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Congratulations. We knew the load combination would work, as long as you did your part, which you apparently did. |
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| Fred, Cleburne, Tx.
NRA Life Member, NAHC Life Member, DU, USN Vet, NRA Certified Instructor
"A gun is like a parachute.
If you need one, and don't have one,
you'll probably never need one again." |
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 15 Oct 2012 08:22 PM |
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I ended up shooting it 2 times, once at 105 yards which knocked it down (I hit a rib high under the spine which paralyzed it), and a follow-up shot at about 20 feet square into the chest. I recovered both slugs, but I don't know which one is which. One retained 97% and the other about 80%. I was actually amazed that the second shot was not a pass through, which is what I was really wanting with that heavy of a slug.
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cayugad
Posts:96
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| 15 Oct 2012 08:32 PM |
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Posted By Orion/CO on 15 Oct 2012 09:22 PM
I ended up shooting it 2 times, once at 105 yards which knocked it down (I hit a rib high under the spine which paralyzed it), and a follow-up shot at about 20 feet square into the chest. I recovered both slugs, but I don't know which one is which. One retained 97% and the other about 80%. I was actually amazed that the second shot was not a pass through, which is what I was really wanting with that heavy of a slug.
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Well a Moose is a thick skinned and massive animal. I would guess the body cavity was still full of fluids and it is amazing how quickly fluids will slow down bullets. Even large conical bullets. And the weight retention is good news also. Shows that even though the projectile was pure lead, it did its job just fine. I have shot the same bullet with 100 grains of Triple Seven in my White Rifles and they are amazing. But for the deer I hunt, 65 grains is a great plenty. Congratulations again on those animals. Great job.
Is that an original Hawkens barrel? I heard a rumor that Thompson Center is not making Hawken rifles anymore. |
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Orion/CO
Posts:15
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| 15 Oct 2012 08:48 PM |
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The rifle was a kit that I got back in 1980 when I was still in high school and the barrel is stamped Thompson Center Arms, Rochester New Hampshire, so I assume it is an original Hawken and barrel |
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cayugad
Posts:96
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| 17 Oct 2012 08:17 AM |
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Yes that is an original barrel then... I have the same kit gun from the same time frame. They are good shooting guns without a doubt. The reason I asked was, Green Mountain Barrel Company sells drop in barrels for that rifle. And you can get them in a 1-28 twist or 1-70 twist. I have both of them in different calibers and ignition systems. I really like the 1-28 for shooting conicals. But the other day I was shooting my T/C Hawken Rifle flintlock with the factory barrel. I was shooting roundball, and I had almost forgot how accurate that thing is at shooting roundball. After reading your experiences... I guess it will get a lot more range time. Enjoy that moose and elk. Both are great eating animals. |
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cayugad
Posts:96
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| 17 Oct 2012 08:23 AM |
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Looking at the picture of the recovered slugs.. I think of all the fancy bullets out there on the market made to do this and that.. and then look at that .503 bullet that is now probably closer to who could guess in diameter. Pure lead conical bullets are deadly. Just plain deadly. They proved that in the Civil War with minnie ball. You got hit with one of them and something was going to either be cut off, out or it did not matter. That picture says a lot for the lead conical. Cheap, accurate, easy to obtain, and deadly. A winning combination. |
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David Asche
Posts:64
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| 05 Nov 2012 02:19 PM |
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Yup. That's a Shiras moose alright.
Now you need to come up here and see what an Alaska-Yukon looks like through your sights. They're just about double what y'all got there!
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handloader1
Posts:321
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| 05 Nov 2012 07:11 PM |
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Orion/Co:
Have you ever thought of using a Cast Preformance .50 cal. 370 gr. WFNGC.  Good luck in your hunt!
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zgrimshaw
Posts:86
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| 06 Dec 2012 11:26 AM |
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indeed! |
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| Zach / Russell NY |
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