Your giving notice about this outfit is appreciated my friend. Not being from IL nor looking to hunt there I don't have to worry bout it but there are others that just maybe your notice will save both the aggravation and finances of being cheated. Thanks again for the heads up !!!

This is a really unfortunate experience especially when I am sure your anticipation of the hunt with your sons was very high. When we purchase these hunts what are really buying is memories and this one sounds not so good. I like Big Dawg do not anticipate ever hunting in ILL. but it is a good reminder when you are booking with a guide to check the references and if the guide is unwilling to provide multiple reference to look some where else.

Is it Illinois Whitetails LLC or Illinois Whitetail Services LLC? I believe it is the 2nd since that is in Eldorado and operated by a man named Doug and I heard a similar account of 1 of his hunts.

That's just down right sad. I think we all know the feeling of that anticipation and can only imagine how big of a dissappointment and let down it was for you and your boy. People like that should be hung by their heels and force fed Ex-Lax.

But, welcome to the boards anyhow. Stick around a bit, it'll grow on ya.

Yes, the outfit is Illinois Whitetail Services LLC, and it is as I said before, owned and operated by Douglas Doty of Eldorado Illinois.  I hope everyone who reads the posting will pass it on to every hunter he or she knows.

Wow, I have been on several paid hunting trips with several outfitters but before I book I always ask certain questions of the outfitter and before booking I get answers. How did you come about choosing Illinois Whitetails Services? Did you see them at a show, INTERNET or what? First question is can I have a list of prior clients both that harvested a deer and those that did not. Did you ask for references? if so did you call them? Second question, what the lodging would be like? Question #3 what the meals would be both while at the camp and in the woods? Did you ask what was meant by "food plots" or did you assume a big filed of Biological? I don't know but I do know deer love to be in the fields of cut corn or soy beans. Again, did you ask what would happen if you or your sons shoot a buck that was lesser than 140" or if you drew blood and couldn't find the deer? These are all questions and more that we ask every outfitter, every time prior to booking.


Now, with that said let me disclose that I have hunted with Illinois Whitetails Services LLC and Doug Doty not once but 4 times in the last 6 years. We have spent the entire week of bowhunting and the 1st gun season over the years. NOT ONCE IN THOSE 4 HUNTS DID I OR ANY OTHER HUNTER encounter or see any other hunter that was not suppose to be on stand. I can tell you we have had a group of 8 hunters every trip and not one of us has ever seen what you described.

Doug as a rule only allows muzzlerloaders but if you had asked he would have considered allowing shotgun to be used. He thinks a hunter with a shotgun will be lead happy but will allow them if asked.

The 140" rule is encouraged but I have never seen Doug penaliaze a hunter for shooting a lesser class buck. In order to get the deer that are on his properties he has to have some sort of standard. I know that if its not 140 and you are happy with it Doug is happy for you.

The 2 "guides you refer to are professional hunters and write for several of the most popular deer magazines. Did you ask yourself why would they be hunting with Doug not just this year but year after year? In fact they have featured Doug's business several deer.

I have been on many a hunts where you have to make you own sandwiches for lunch to take in the woods. I dont see any other option unless you plan on coming out of the woods for a hot lunch.

I for one would give up some comfort such as 2x4 bunks, small or tight quaters and stay with an outitter that knows his deer and deer numbers. In fact I think all but 1 of my hunts had bunks that were 2x4 with a good mattress. I don't think there are too many outfitters that work as hard as they do at Illinois Whitetails LLC to get their clients a deer on the ground. There is no smoking or wearing hunting clothes in the living quaters, they check weather and wind before bed and 1st thing in the AM so they know which stands have the best wind in the hunters favor. Again, that is what we are paying for the chance to shoot a buck of a life time are we not? I know you saw the Joe June Buck (over 300 lbs and scored 180"green) shot at Doug's last year, he is a member of our group.

maybe you didn't ask the right questions, maybe your expectations were off but I can not disagree with you more as Illinois Whitetail Services LLC being a SCAM. THEY ARE NOT A SCAM!

Well you must be one of his favorites, every guy in camp while we were there except for his "Regulars" had the same experience we had and they checked his references, I will bet that not one of them will be a repeat customer.  Even the guy who shot the 130" buck and his partner said they would not be back.  The only reference I had was from an Outdoor Show host, who it turns out was giving me a reference to a different outfit with the similar name, i.e. Illinois Whitetails LLC.  They never hunted with Doug.  So what you are telling me is that as long as you get a chance at 140" or better buck, you are willing to pay $3000.00 and put up with the service and conditions that we experienced while we were there.  We did not see any "Food Pots", we did not hunt on any land that Doug had exclusive rights to.  I had a guy shoot so close to my box blind, that it sounded like he was in the blind with me.  He then proceeded to spend the next 2 or three hours prowling around my blind looking for his wounded deer.  Both of my sons had guys with pickup trucks driving the roads around their stand and watched them shoot from the window of the truck and kill a deer.  The locals knew we were there, they drove out into the "Food Plot" with the truck and spun a few doughnuts to get our attention. On the second day my youngest son watched one of the local hunters chase a group of deer off of the farm and shoot at them while on the ATV.  If you want to have a really good hunting experience, you should try Table Mountain Outfitters, Cheyenne Wyoming.  It's a little more expensive, but Scott and Angie have sole access to ranches that are loaded with antelope, mule deer and elk.  If Doug is such a good outfitter, why is he not listed in the outfitters web site, also why are there no photos of his "Camp" in his brochure, why not put in the brochure what the meals consist of and who does the preparation.  For $3000.00, you sound like you would be satisfied just seeing a shooter buck.  Well we didn't see any shooter bucks and even if we had, or even if we harvested a buck that made the 140" mark, the service, the accommodations and the areas we hunted, with all of the local harassment is not worth even $1000.00.  Doug claimed that he had a 94% opportunity rate on shooter size bucks within the effective range of the hunter, was that your experience?  I'm happy for you, that you think Doug's operation is such a great place to hunt, it's guys like you who will keep him in business.  Every reputable outfitter I have hunted with, gave a complete run down on their operation, no surprises when you got in camp.  Doug's operation was full of surprises, none of them good.  I will accept the responsibility of not doing what I normally do with a new outfitter, and I will never again take a reference from one person without checking the place out thoroughly. 

I have also been hunting with Illinois Whitetail Services LLC for many years now. Some times I have harvested deer and sometimes I haven't. I have also hunted with many different outfitters and been burned by a few; overhunted farms, low deer populations, etc. But I can tell you, and everyone that reads this, that I do not need to look for any more places to hunt whitetail bucks in the midwest, Doug Doty's place is the ticket if you are looking to score on a big buck. I wasn't able to go to Illinois this year, but I am definitely going back next year, I can't wait. His farms are on prime southern Illinois farm ground. Lots of deer and lots of bucks! Only on one occasion did I ever see hunters on neighboring properties. They were doing a deer drive and actually pushed a bunch of deer onto the property that I was on. I never had any other hunter intruding on my area that wasn't supposed to be there. It is fair chase hunting though, no one is guaranteed to shoot a buck.

Now I know that Doug's place is not a 5 star lodge, but I'm comfortable when I'm there and the food has always warmed me up after long, all day sits in the woods. Doug and his family make you feel right at home and are probably the most honest people you will ever meet. It is like being at my family's cabin in PA. Now if you're looking for a gourmet meal and a glass of wine with dinner...this is not for you. Bojack is right, you need to ask questions about meals, lodging conditions, etc. if these things are important to you.

In fact, this "scam" post is really disparaging and anyone that knows Doug, or his operation, knows that most of these claims are blown out of proportion or just plain not true. Sorry this trip wasn't what you expected, but don't tear the guy down or mess with his livelihood...that's just not right

In closing, Illinois Whitetail Services LLC is the polar opposite of a scam, Doug goes above and beyond to keep their hunters happy and covered up with deer.

I didn't say that Doug or his family were not nice people, they were probably some of the nicest people you could meet. What I am saying is the hunt we had and the treatment from the locals was the worst you could expect, they might be getting tired of him and his clients intruding on their deer hunting.  If you like getting the level of service that you get from Doug, and you like making your own breakfast and lunch, and you like the meals they serve for dinner, and you like being in a crowded bunk room, and you like paying $3000.00 for the opportunity to see a deer that might make 140", and you like being harassed by local hunters who don't seem to have the same level of respect for Doug that you have, then I guess this is the place for you.  As far as I'm concerned, I wouldn't go back to his place if he offered us all a free hunt.

I can understand your dis-appointment if you were expecting service such as a five star restaurant would provide. Obviously you did not ask the right questions or communicate to Doug what your expectations are. Everyone has their own way of going nuts, some like chocolate and others like vanilla, some even prefer golf over hunting. I personally love to hunt and fish. I went on my first guided hunting trip to Illinois Whitetail Services in Nov. 2011 and had a pretty good idea as what to expect. My position was that I am going to Illinois for a trophy buck and was fortunate to harvest a buck that is entered into the Boone and Crokett record book. ( It is featured on Doug"s website) I went with my two brothers, Two nephews, and another friend. We harvested three beautiful bucks, my brother used a shotgun, the food was fantastic, there was no such thing as a fine for shooting one under 140, in fact Doug said if you are happy with whatever you shoot, he is happy. Everyone there were extremely friendly and I felt like I knew them all my life. This past March I had some heavy duty surgery from which I am still recovering, we are all planning on going back this year however I do not yet know whether I will be up to it. Doug is allowing me to wait until the last possible day to commit. I can't say enough positives about Doug and his wife Beccie and Illinois Whitetail Services in general. I did not see any other hunters or four wheelers, etc. where I hunted. I really think you are being unfair to Doug when in reality it is your fault for not finding out what the deal is before you booked your trip.

All I can say in over 20 + days of hunting with Doug and Illinois Whitetail Services for 8 guys in our group the stuff you claim happened NEVER happened to any of us. We never had a problem or got harrassed by the locals or other hunters. As far as the meals went they were more often than not cooked by Doug's wife or mother and alwa{1}**** the spot, especially Mom's home made oatmeal cookies!

Let me ask you what your motive was by posting your original post if it wasn't to bash him and his business. If you wanted to warn others you simply could have put a post saying anyone interested in booking a hunt with him to private message you before they do. Again I go back to asking the all the right questions. If you had may be your expectations would not have been unrealistic.

Maybe its a good idea that you don't ask a lot of questions because I get the feeling you are a type a guy that can never be satisfied or pleased and why would any outfitter want you in camp anyway.

I have hunted with Doug Doty at Illinois WHitetail Services LLC the past six years. And I was on the same hunt this year as the gentleman who started this thread. I did not shoot a buck this year, but I plan to go back. I have seen the biggest bucks of my life while hunting with Doug, including a 170-class giant this year. Unfortunately, we hit lockdown hard. Those of you with a few years of whitetail hunting experience know how slow it can be when the bucks are locked down. It's unfortunate, but that's nature and hunting. I know this gentleman said he has hunted all over North America, but in talking to him for 5 minutes, it was clear he did not have much hunting experience. Comparing a mule deer/antelope hunt in Wyoming at Table Mountain with an Illinois whitetail hunt is like comparing apples and tennis rackets. He and I ate the same food at Doug's, and I thought it was excellent. If he happened to return to camp later than others and his food was cold...there was a microwave sitting right there he could have used to solve the probelm. Not sure what the problem is with making your own lunch for an all-day sit in a stand. All the ingredients were provided. All we had to do was make our sandwiches and pack our snacks....take as much or as little as you want. I guess that was too much for this gentleman to handle. And let's be fair about how the hunt went down, sir. On the second day, Doug sent this guy to one of his best stands after specifically asking the guy if he could navigate in the dark with simple instructions. The guy said he could, and proceeded to get lost. All he had to do was walk a field edge, with a huge field on his left and woods on his right, until his flashlight hit the 800 night tacks Doug has marking the stand. What does this guy do? He proceeds to walk into the woods nowhere near the tacks, and wandered all over the place, through the best bedding areas, spooking every deer in White County into the next county. Then, at the end of the day, with 20 minutes of light left....magic time....he gets down out of his stand and leaves! At prime time! As for the neighbors riding ATVs on an adjoining property....that did happen. But how is that Doug's fault? He had nothing to do with it. Unfortunately, idiots will be idiots. They wrecked one of this guy's sons hunts for half a day and that stinks for him. But you can't blame Doug for that. I understand this hunt did not meet this gentleman's expectations, but there's no need to try to hurt Doug's reputation......To anyone reading this, I can assure you.....you can find 100 hunters who will tell you the exact opposite of their experiences with Doug. Don't take the word of someone who went once and didn't really know what he was doing. Talk to some experienced guys who have hunted with him multiple times to get the real story.....

As a North American Hunting Club Lifetime Member since 1997, after reading this post, I felt I had an obligation to convey my multiple experiences with Mr. Douglas Doty, of Illinois Whitetail Services, LLC, (IWS) in southern Illinois.

Let me begin by stating that I first began hunting with Mr. Doty in November of 2007. As a result of the wonderful time I had on my first trip with his outfit, I continued to hunt with him from that time until present. To date, I have spent a total of forty-eight days of actual hunting with this outfitter. That fact alone should clearly communicate to anyone reading these posts, that I have obviously been very pleased with Mr. Doty and the service he provides. For over twenty-five years, I have hunted in states all throughout the country, and I have never had more success than I do when I hunt with Illinois Whitetail Servies, LLC. There are many outfitters who view their clients merely as a "number" or a "statistic". NOT SO with Mr. Doty. The business model that he has chosen to implement is one of less hunters per hunt to ensure more good bucks and a quality hunt for each person in camp. He is aware that he will only be as successful in his business as his hunters are in the field. When you arrive in camp and head out into the field, you know that the deer stand you are getting ready to hunt from hasn't been soiled by multiple hunters before you arrived. The obvious result is that, more often than not, each hunter sees many deer, and often several shooter size bucks on any given sit. As is the case anywhere you go, it is not a reasonable expectation to think that you will be shooting at 140" or better deer EVERY time you head into the woods. If that is your expectation, then any outfitter with free ranging deer isn't for you. The best, obvious alternative for a hunter with that expectation is to hunt on a game ranch or somewhere behind a high fence where they provide all sorts of game in abundance, with zero chance for failure. Mr. Doty offers fair chase hunts, and it is definitely legitimate "hunting", which, as we all know, can sometimes be frustrating, as there are so many variables and circumstances outside of our control. On the other hand, when you have the privilege of harvesting a quality animal in real life hunting conditions, it is so much more rewarding and fulfilling. In forty-eight days of hunting with Mr. Doty, I have harvested multiple quality bucks that have been some of the largest I have ever tagged. Even when I haven't gotten a deer, the hunts have always been exciting and action packed! I have thoroughly enjoyed each and every hunting trip that I have spent with Mr. Doty. In fact, I have so thoroughly appreciated my time spent with this outfitter, that I have now brought my two young boys, ages thirteen and eleven, to the special youth hunt that Mr. Doty offers in early October of each year. It has been on those hunts that each of my boys harvested their first buck, with one of them tagging a Pope & Young quality animal. Needless to say, those were some of the most memorable and touching hunts I have ever experienced. Because the youth hunts take place in early October, it is often very hot, and the deer movement can be slow. Mr. Doty goes to great lengths to do his very best to still give each of the boys an opportunity at a buck while hunting there. In a recent hunt, he pulled out all of the stops, and over half of the young hunters went home with a buck (their first for all of them), with the others choosing to pass on several very respectable deer. His commitment to the generational transfer of the love of hunting to the next generation has been nothing short of remarkable. Let me state this as clearly as I can: Mr. Doty may be a lot of different things, but one of them that he assuredly is NOT is a scam artist or a fraud. Having spent over a month and a half hunting with this outfitter over the past six seasons, I can assure everyone reading this post that the scam artist and fraud claim is absurd and literally laughable. If hunting hard, resulting in multiple good bucks hanging on your wall is a scam, then maybe you have a point. If not, then it's a baseless accusation to besmirch one of the finest men with whom I have ever had the privilege of hunting. Mr. Doty is the real deal in every way. He is as straight of a shooter as there is, and honest to a fault. From his equipment, to his property, he is extremely generous with everything at his disposal. He is literally driven to see each and every hunter who darkens his door find new heights of success while afield. He is constantly reviewing the weather patterns and deer movement, and adjusting the plan accordingly for each hunter present. To read a fellow NAHC life member calling a man like Mr. Doty, and his outfitting business, a scam and a fraud is beyond alarming to me! I can't state strongly enough that the aforementioned claim is baseless and untrue. In all of my dealings with Mr. Doty, I have never known him to be anything other than honest and committed to integrity in every way. As we all know, any outfitting business is only as good as the outfitter. Any business is always based on the person spearheading and leading it, and Illinois Whitetail Services, LLC, is no exception. That being stated, after forty-eight days spent hunting with this outfitter, and as a North American Hunting Club Life Member of fifteen years, I can assure you that I am not personally aware of anything fraudulent or unscrupulous about Mr. Doty or any of the services he provides through Illinois Whitetail Services, LLC. I obviously can only speak on my own behalf, but that has been my experience in any and all dealings with Mr. Doty. I think the report of a man who has forty-eight days of experience with an outfitter should overshadow the report of a client who has only spent three days with this particular establishment. But as is always the case, I'll let each person decide for themselves. I will say that to give a public denouncement of an outfitter after only three days of hunting is like writing off a new president after only a month, a new boss after only a week, or a new teacher after only a day. It isn't fair, right or prudent. Because of the many things that can potentially go awry on any short hunt, you can't give a fair analysis of an outfitter based on only three days. I think we can all agree on that fact.

Because of that, I was literally stunned to read the initial post that started this discussion, as well as the quick responses from other members. The Bible has an interesting little proverb that simply states, "The first to present his case seems right, until another comes along and questions it." The man who started this discussion stated that he is sixty-eight years old and the quick responses from other members all appeared to come from people who have likewise been around the block a few times. Due to that fact, I was shocked to see the responses based on one side of the story, with no due diligence done in the background before posting off-the-cuff comments that clearly attack a man that I personally know to be as solid of a man as I have ever met. One quick response jumped off the cliff of logical reason and into the juvenile pond of personal attacks, stating that ex-lax should be shoved down Mr. Doty's throat! Whoever posted that...shame on you! I am embarrassed to be called a fellow member of any club with a person like you. I make no apologies for my strong sentiments, and I won't engage into further discussion with you if you respond to this post. You, and people like you, aren't the kind of people with whom I choose to interact. If you are truly a reasonable, experienced person, the only response you should have is an apology for reacting irresponsibly. Enough said.

Moving on from that very disappointing discussion, for any sincere folks wanting to know the truth, I personally contacted Mr. Doty to inquire as to what had transpired on this hunt. I asked him if any of my fellow NAHC members had contacted him to substantiate any of this disgruntled hunter's claims. He assured me that they hadn't, and also informed me that the angry client had likewise not even attempted to handle this in a professional and mature fashion. It was unbelievable to me that no one who responded to this man's claims had contacted Mr. Doty before adding fuel to the fire. Anyone who has fanned the flames of this man's anger, without personally investigating this situation for yourself, should likewise be totally and utterly ashamed of your conduct! Professional outfitters take their profession very seriously, work year round to cultivate a productive hunting experience, and depend on the income generated from their efforts to provide for their families. They rely almost solely on referrals and repeat business, and to undermine any given outfitter, on a very public forum, that potential future clients will almost assuredly read, without contacting the outfitter and searching out the matter for one's self, is baseless conduct as far as I'm concerned. I guarantee you that none of us would want to be treated in such a fashion.

After thoroughly discussing this particular hunt with Mr. Doty, I quickly came to the conclusion that Illinois Whitetails Services, LLC. was not a good fit for the disappointed hunter who started this whole discussion. He was clearly anticipating something very different than what he found when he arrived, and the whole hunt seemed to unravel from there. As several IWS clients have already mentioned, the vast majority of the disparity between this hunter's expectations, and the reality of what he experienced, lies almost solely on this hunter's shoulders. Again, this is a sixty-eight year old man that we're talking about here, and as he stated in his initial post, this definitely isn't his first rodeo. For him to not thoroughly investigate everything regarding a $3,000+ hunt, from the accommodations, to the food, to the beds, to the guides, to the land, to the food plots, to the blinds (and as we all know the outfitter vetting checklist goes on and on and on...), etc, is no one's responsibility but his own. If every one of those details is vitally crucial for him to have a successful hunting experience, and he failed to do a thorough analysis of all of these details, thus leaving all of it to random chance, I don't see how he can fault anyone but himself. I would personally think that after the many years of hunting with various outfitters around the country, all of this would be automatic for him. After talking to Mr. Doty, it appears to me as if this client failed to do the proper investigation required for him to confirm that IWS was indeed the experience he was anticipating. Furthermore, after hearing Mr. Doty's side of the story, he probably should have been more concerned with the placement of his stand than the packaging of his sandwich, as Mr. Doty had received a complaint from another client on that hunt, whose hunt was ruined one morning because this man couldn't find his stand that was clearly marked and then came out with plenty of shooting light left that evening and scared away a deer from the other client, essentially ruining one whole day of only a three day hunt. As I have already stated, anyone with any life experience at all knows that there are always two sides to every story!

Now, let me state very clearly that IWS isn't a good fit for everyone.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants to be assured of 100% success, then IWS is not for you.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants to harvest your game within the first day or so of your hunt, each and every time you are there, then IWS is not for you.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants to spend more time in a grand lodge organizing your equipment, rather than in the field pursuing fair chase game, then IWS is not for you.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants to stay in a lodge where you can pitter patter around in your camouflage slippers on a hickory floor, resting your feet on a bear rug in front of a two story, stone fireplace, listening to the crackle of the fire as you read hunting magazines, then IWS is not for you.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants hot lunches and catered dinners, then IWS is not for you.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants your own bedroom and bathroom, with little to no interaction with other hunters, then IWS is not for you.
If you are the kind of hunter who wants to wake up to a person taking your breakfast order, then IWS is not for you.
I say all of this in sincerity, because there are in fact many hunters who view much of what I just stated to be a very big part of any given hunt, and therefore have much of the aforementioned checklist as a very real expectation.

On the other hand, if you are a hunter who enjoys a fair chase hunting experience aimed at shooting good bucks in some of the best land in the whole Midwest, then IWS is for you.
If you are a hunter who is primarily concerned with the actual hunting experience spent afield, then IWS is for you.
If you are a hunter who enjoys interacting with the rest of the hunters in camp in a very "homey", family style setting, then IWS is for you.
The focus of IWS is aimed primarily at the field hunting experience with everything else playing a supporting role rather then taking center stage.

There are obviously hundreds upon hundreds of different outfitters to choose from throughout the country, with each one providing many different levels of service, and it is each hunter's personal responsibility to research all of these crucial details before signing on for an expensive hunt. If they fail to do so, and then are disappointed, that is really their own fault. To try to assuage their disappointment by seeking to attack and discredit an honest, hard working outfitter and his legitimate business is reckless, unjust and irresponsible. It won't reconcile their dashed expectations and will only continue to remind them of their deep frustration. Regardless of the situation, I stand against this kind of behavior, and I will do everything in my power to combat this foolishness with the truth. What each person does with the truth is their own prerogative, and outside of my control.

In conclusion, I would ask any potential hunters considering hunting with Mr. Doty and Illinois Whitetail Services, LLC, to do diligence before signing on and to establish what exactly you are seeking in any given hunt before you even begin the process of selecting an outfitter. If any of us fail to do our homework in a thorough manner, we have no one to blame but ourselves.

Hopefully my many experiences with Mr. Doty and Illinois Whitetail Services, LLC, over the past six years will be helpful in bringing balance to what I perceive to be a very unfair and unfortunate post that started this whole firestorm.

That's the view from one very satisfied hunter's perspective...

Hollywood well said!

Oh on a side note I personally did not speak to Doug about what happened with this hunt but one of the memeber in our group that has and will continue to hunt with Doug did and that person informed our group what had transpired.

...I also should have mentioned...the properties DOug hunts are NOT open to "any and all local residents" as was suggested. The guys who showed up on the ATVs were NOT on Doug's land. They were on a neighboring land and acting totally illegally. Again...unfortunate, but not Doug's fault. Doug's hunt is a 3-day hunt because that's the length of the first Illinois gun season. That's it. Three days. A lot can negatively affect a 3-day hunt from the weather, to the deer movements to the local idiots. As a previous poster noted....this is not a high-fence operation. You are guaranteed nothing but a god time and the CHANCE at an Illinois giant.

WOW.  I am very sorry to hear of your poor experience - I am sure it was very frustrating for you.

I have to tell you however, that I have now been hunting for over 30 years.  I have hunted all over the United States as well as internationally.  Upon reading your post, I knew that I had to take the time to share my experience at Mr. Doty's camp.

Let me start by saying that even thou I have extensive hunting experience, it certainly is not in white tail hunting.  As a matter of fact I had never shot a white tail buck prior to going to Mr. Doty's camp. 

Prior to making my reservation, I spoke with Mr. Doty and asked him several questions, from the accomodations, to the type of firearm, to his experience, references, etc, etc.  I must say he went over everything in detail with me - I received exactly what I was promised - no more, no less.  I also informed him that I had taken manny different types of animals, but never a white tail buck and would perhaps have a difficult time in properly judging the size of the animal - 140" - I was concerned, not about the $500.00 fee, but rather that I was not going to take the correct animal.  I was looking for a mature animal, a good representation of the species.  He informed that I had nothing to worry about and that as long as I was happy he would be happy.

Anyway, arrived at Mr. Doty's residence and had the pleasure of meeting his wife and children.  Wonderful family.  He took the time to explain to me how a white tail is measured / scored, what to look for in determining the size, etc., etc.  He must have spent a good 2 hours going over manny details of the hunt.  In these details, he also informed me of what was expected of me.  He also gave me his cell number to keep in contact with him if I had any questions once on stand.  It went well.  I followed his instructions - stayed on stand, called in a 150" class deer and was able to harvest my buck and doe  by 9:00 the first day.  Needless to say I was very happy.  In the time that I spent at the camp all but 2 hunters were successful.  One hunter had the opportunity but missed.  The other hunter did not see an animal that he would be happy with.  I must note however, that hunting is hunting - you are not guaranteed success.  Mr. Doty never guaranteed 100% shot opportunity.  This was my first time hunting with Mr. Doty, but certainly not the last - I will be returning in 2013.

In conclusion I would like to say to all, that regardless of whatever business you are in, you will never be able to please 100% of the people you deal with regardless of how hard you try.  My recommendation is that you as the consumer do your research.  What is acceptable to others, may not be acceptable to you.  What I can tell you is that it is very unfair to characterize Mr. Doty's business and effort as a SCAM.  It is not - to the contrary.  I found him to be an honest and hard working man, true to his word. 

Wow, I got a chance to meet so many of Doug's loyal supporters through this web site, he must have called everyone he could to write a rebuttal for him.  I have hunted with numerous outfits in Maine, New Brunswick Canada, Newfoundland, Montana, Colorado, Wyoming and New York.  I was a licensed guide in NY for several years.  I killed well over 150 whitetails.  In all of my experience, I have never been lost in the woods, let alone in a corn field.  Now it seems that we have to lie about what took place at Doug's camp in order to defend him.  The stand site that one of the responders was referring to was in a strip of hardwoods bordered on one side by a tilled field and a creek on the other, the strip of woods was maybe 70 yards wide.  The reflector tacks, (2 or 3) were stuck in the end of a limb 6 or 7 feet above the ground, not where you would expect to see or even look for a reflector tack.  If walking along the edge of the tilled field for approximately 75 yards past the stand site spooked all the deer out of the county (prime bedding area), then I guess I'm guilty.  As far as being lost goes, the "Guide/Client" couldn't find his way to the area we were supposed to hunt or his way back to the camp without a GPS and that was on paved roads.  I have killed deer that scored in the 140's and dressed out over 200 lbs in the North woods of Maine and New Brunswick on bare ground and in the snow, without a guide.  Every camp I have ever been in except for Doug's was well run and always welcomed me back.  I was always afforded the opportunity to hunt on my own with a map and compass, something I'm sure you would never attempt.  As far as leaving the stand site when there was still shooting light, along with your cell phone you must have also forgotten your watch.  If you bothered to check the game laws for Illinois, you would have discovered that legal shooting time is one half hour before sunrise and one half hour after sunset.  I climbed down out of my ladder stand at 7 minutes after legal shooting time, I got to your stand at 20 minutes after legal shooting time, which means you were locked and loaded and ready to take your trophy after legal shooting time.  I know there is only one game warden to cover three counties but you still have an obligation to obey the law.  As far as the stand site is concerned, it was located in the strip of woods between the tilled field and the creek, the tree was about 24 inches in diameter at 15 feet up, too big to even attempt to attach your safety strap.  It was not brushed in or camouflaged in any way, you looked like an orange light bulb in the middle of a patch of hardwoods that no self respecting buck would dare to approach.  The only thing I saw after 12+ hours on the stand was turkeys and squirrels.  There was no sine of any deer activity in or around that stand and had not been any for weeks.  I'm happy for Doug that he has so many people who are satisfied with his operation.  I think he pocketed somewhere between $30,000 and $36,000 for the three day "Hunt".  His overhead costs for food couldn't have been much more than $150.00 for 12 guys, plus gas to take them to and from their stand sites.  You guys seem to be OK with that.  No one ever expects a 5 star restaurant in a deer camp, including me, but this wasn't even bare bones. One more thing, the guys in the pickup and on the ATV were within 75 yards of my sons stand, not on the adjoining land.  The only challenge in this hunt was to sit in a box blind or in a tree stand for 12 solid hours and hope that a buck would be dumb enough to walk in front of you, and for sure that does happen.  Does that make you a "Deer Hunter"?  Like the guy from Vermont said during dinner on the first night, I come here to shoot an easy deer, I'm getting to old to have to work for them.         

I'm not sure how anyone can believe your claims...I don't know any hunter that has never gotten turned around in the big woods, no matter how much experience you have in the woods. I've been hunting for 25 years and usually don't get lost...but guess what, it happens sometimes. And also, hunting whitetails in the Midwest is a totally different ball game from hunting them in the big woods of Maine and Canada. Hunting in the Midwest is definitely a waiting game, there's no stalking or tracking. You were put in the best spots possible to cross paths with a big buck. I love it when a guy thinks that he knows more than the outfitter who lives there year round and knows those deer better than anyone. And if you don't think all day sits in the deer woods are not challenging, you are a better man than I am.

Also, if you think this guy makes a ton of money doing this, you're crazy!!! Do you have any idea how much it costs to lease exclusive hunting
ground in Illinois??

I guess if you feel you need to have the last word on this thread, keep going. You're entitled to your opinion...but then again, you know what they say about opinions...

Before so many of you responded with positive reviews I have heard 2 bad reviews of this outfitter. Perhaps the 2 negative reviewers expected something vastly different than the positive reviewers. I cannot say either way since I was not there for the negative nor positive experiences.

As for sitting 12 hours in 1 stand without moving? I would say that would be a major challenge!

Now about getting lost in the woods. I have been in wooded areas ranging from a few hundred acres to 1000s of acres and I have not gotten lost. True I am not racing through the area and I take my time to look around and if in unfamiliar trails I take a pic of all trail intersections from both directions. I have hiked over a 100 miles on the AT with side trails and managed to not get lost. A good compass and decent map should be enough for a "guide" or local to not get lost.

This thread has given me reason to NOT go with an outfitter unless I personally know someone that is going back as a repeat client with me.

To the OP, I am sorry you had such a bad experience and to the others I am glad you enjoyed your trips.

SteelCandy@ the reason we sit for 12+hours in a blind, tree stand is take advantage if the rutting activity and the deer movement that comes along with the rut. Deer can and do move all day long during the rut which give the hunter better odds of seeing deer at any time. And yes it is a challenge to say the least.

It is a little different walking the woods to a deer stand. It is done well before 1st light and more often in the total dark of night. Most if not all have never set foot on the trail path prior. The outfitter marks the trail with reflector tacks which can't be missed when a light source is shined on them. The reflective tacks are on both side of the tree make your exit as easy as it was going in. But you must follow the outfitter detailed instructions on how to find the stand. If he tell you walk the edge of the field for 80 yds then walk it 80 yds. I bet if you used a rangefinder on it from start to finish it would be 80 yds on the dot. So if you are not following his directions and did t walk the route and distance and you decide to express you will be wrong and probably push deer from the beds. Believe me I don't doubt he had a miserable time and its my guess he made it miserable for everyone in camp with him. His lack of experience in in many areas lead to his expectations being something that were unrealistic He claims to have been a guide for 15 yrs in NY and has hunted many times in camp on his own with a map. Find that hard to believe most place I have been to and researched would NEVER allow that they don't want a cowboy walking around invading other hunts space and pushing deer to the next county. Trust me he is making this personal against the outfitter. I have heard from the outfitter since the hunt and I can't believe the guys is still sending NASTY threatening email back to the outfitter. Again I ask what is his motive? Illinois whitetail Services LLC is a blue collar worker camp and may not be for the guy like the one from VT to shot a easy one cuz getting to old. If that's the case go to the zoo and shot one. Might not be for the guy that wants eggs, bacon, sausages toast coffee served followed up by a hot lunch deliveried to him on stand and a dumb buck to walk in front of him. Dude that ain't hunting! Bottom line is you screwed up and didn't verify references or completely ask all the questions so that when you arrived in camp there would be no surprises and your expectation would have been real. Face DUDE this is just a personal attack on Doug and his business and towards anyone who has disagreed with you. Again if it was not the intent of you to do harm to his livelihood you simply could have posted a one line post. "Anyone thinking about booking a hunt with ILLINOIS WHITETAIL SERVICES LLC please call me or sent me a private message before you book". That is all it would of took and anyone that was interested you the. Could have told them you experience. But to do it the way you did was nothing short of a vindictive attack on a good man and a well run business for the blue collar deer hunter. Sorry steel candy I kind of started to harp on the guy who started this post while I was trying to explain some things to you. LOL bottom line is I believe it is a hack job by a person who can ever be happy or satisfied no matter how hard the outfitter works for him. I bet by the end of the 3 days he was close to being booted from the camp because all he was doing was{1}*****ing about everything

TLC@ weather I'm on a hunt with a outfitter or hunting my own properties I always get into the stand in the dark. That is what you do in order to the the wood settle down. I know for a fact if someone is concerned about walking in Doug has walked people in to the stands. Again just got to ask.

As far as our post towards the original poster what we say isnt taking food off the guys table unlike what he is trying to do to IWS.

What difference does it make how many counties he LEASES property in for his coustomers?

You have no statement of facts about IWS because you have no 1st hand knowledge of him or his business. Of course you will find people that don't like him and talk stufff about him. My guess they are in the outfitting business themselves and our in competition for business..

as far as Doug coming on and getting involved in this discussing that would be suicidal for business. He doesn't need to get in a peeing contest, how would that look not very professional. That fact that his operation has been written in top deer hunting magazines such aBUCK MASTERSRS and North American Whitetails gives creditability to him and his operations.

Bottom line responsibilitylity lies with the customer to check out the outfitter and ask questions so his expectations are real. This didn'tidnt do that and has no one to blame but himself. It's time for him to get over it and move on and stop sending nasty emails to IWS. The hunt is OVER

I don't need to have the last word, but in closing I would like all of Doug's loyal supporters to look on the wall of his living room.  On the left, is a 173 inch 10 point buck that one of his neighbors shot at night and left under his tree stand.  I wonder why someone would do such a thing.  Could it be that they don't like him or his operation, I think that may be the case.  They sure as hell don't like you or any other outsider intruding on their hunting grounds, and they dam sure don't like it when someone from out of town shoots "Their" bucks.  As far as getting lost in the woods, It's never happened to me.  I have hunted numerous wilderness areas both in Canada and the US.  My sons also have hunted with me in those areas and they too have never been lost.  If you can't use a compass and a map, I would not suggest hunting in those areas.  As far as comparing Wyoming hunting to Illinois, that was not the comparison I was making.  The comparison was the difference between an outfitter who knows what he is doing and one who just has a good line of BS.  When a guide tells me that the bucks are locked down, a red light goes on.  Big bucks don't get locked to anything except a does ass when the time is right.  What he might better say to his clients is "the weather has been too warm, the rutting activity is taking place late at night after it cools off, I'm sorry but on this hunt, if it doesn't get cold i.e. below 32 degrees, and stays there for several days, you most likely won't see many big bucks".  I have hunted  these animals for 50 years, they don't like heat and they don't like wind and most of all they don't like being pressured by road hunters or ATV traffic.

Bojack SteelCandy@ the reason we sit for 12+hours in a blind, tree stand is take advantage if the rutting activity and the deer movement that comes along with the rut. Deer can and do move all day long during the rut which give the hunter better odds of seeing deer at any time. And yes it is a challenge to say the least.


That is something I have never had to do. I have never had to wait more than a few hours, at most 3 or 4. Maybe I have just been lucky all of my life? The last few times I was in my stand before light and by 7:30 am deer down. I had always thought that scouting was essential and with the wide availability or game cams with time and date stamping it should help you set up with a little time for the woods to settle down but not 12 hours. Before I am even near the woods I know what I am looking for that day. It could be that scouting has shown the big buck I want arrives almost every day after noon so no need to be there at 5 am. Am I looking for meat and want a big bodied deer and do not care about the rack or am I after a trophy? Do I want to remove an older deer that has never had decent antlers so I can try to improve the local genetics? With advance scouting and aided by game cams I plan ahead of time. If it is not my local area and I am paying someone for their knowledge I would want them to be as well prepared. But I would ask many questions before plunking down $300 let alone $3000.

When I was very young I was told to never pass anything on the 1st day that you would take on the last and to never take anything on the last day that you would pass on the 1st.

To all of you gentlemen

The point is being missed here.  Everyone has the right to have their own opinion and express it.  I don't know Doug very well - just hunted there once and was very satisfied.  This gentlemen was not happy with Doug's services and he has the right to express it.

However, that said he does not have the right to express it in the manner that he did; SCAM.  He has accused Mr. Doty of operating a business in a fraudulent manner with the purpose to scheme.  This was a personal attack on a man's reputation, his name.  As sportsman we should not endorse such behavior; we know better and deserve better.

If he was unhappy with Mr. Doty's services, he should have stated so and give his reason or reasons - that is all.  When you go further and accuse someone of being a fraud, you are going way too far over the line.  Its nasty, mean, vendivict with only one intention, which is to ruin a man's reputation. ITS WRONG.

Everyone is entiteled to their opinion, but not entitled to intentionally destroy a man's name.

ONLY MY OPINION FOR WHAT ITS WORTH.

I have no problem with a guy expressing his opinion about his experience. The problem is that smonteleone chose to call Doug a "Scam artist." That's why guys are coming on to defend him. If you want to say you had a bad experience....fine. But when you make personal attacks, that's when the defenders come out.

I would like to visit this alternate universe where hunters never get turned around in the woods, deer are dead on the ground by 7:30 every time out, and there is no lock down..

Are these posts for real???

Posted By Bojack on 04 Dec 2012 06:36 AM
TLC@ weather I'm on a hunt with a outfitter or hunting my own properties I always get into the stand in the dark. That is what you do in order to the the wood settle down. I know for a fact if someone is concerned about walking in Doug has walked people in to the stands. Again just got to ask.

As far as our post towards the original poster what we say isnt taking food off the guys table unlike what he is trying to do to IWS.

What difference does it make how many counties he LEASES property in for his coustomers?

You have no statement of facts about IWS because you have no 1st hand knowledge of him or his business. Of course you will find people that don't like him and talk stufff about him. My guess they are in the outfitting business themselves and our in competition for business..

as far as Doug coming on and getting involved in this discussing that would be suicidal for business. He doesn't need to get in a peeing contest, how would that look not very professional. That fact that his operation has been written in top deer hunting magazines such aBUCK MASTERSRS and North American Whitetails gives creditability to him and his operations.

Bottom line responsibilitylity lies with the customer to check out the outfitter and ask questions so his expectations are real. This didn'tidnt do that and has no one to blame but himself. It's time for him to get over it and move on and stop sending nasty emails to IWS. The hunt is OVER

bj, this is not twitter, so no need for the @ stuff.  think that's where I saw that symbol used?  anyways, no one said not to be in your stand before dark.  said the outfitter screwed up by not taking the guy out the first time.  I can walk to every stand on my place in the dark.  but, have been hunting the farm for years.  if I tried to tell anyone else, they may or may not be able to find the stands.  I would take a first timer to the stand on a new property they had never been on.  and if, as you say, you go in so the woods can settle down, it would be no problem to do this. and have never been on a hunt where the outfitter or one of his guides has not taken people out the first day. the other thing I noticed is no one talked about a night before sit down where the outfitter went over any rules, regulations, or safety procedures. again, never been on a hunt where this has not been the case. the outfitters took the time over the night before the hunt meal to go over the lay of the land, what to expect, what they had been seeing. all that informational stuff that would be helpful to a guy who had never been in the area before.

if I had the experience this guy had, would be saying the same thing.  as I stated, the guy should have asked more questions than he did.  then again, the outfitter should have supplied more information than he did.  and, he has every right, whether you like it or not, to express his opinion(s).  with no buts added.

you're right.  what difference does it make?  so why didn't you answer the question?  curious if he has places in saline, gallatin, hardin, pope, etc.  if you don't know, that's fine.

no. no first hand knowledge.  that's why I asked people who have lived in this area longer than I have.  and ZERO of them are outfitters.  nice try on that one.  but one is the police chief in eldorado.  as I said, wanted to get independant opinions about the guy.  and that's what I got.  it is interesting though that none of you have done anything but hunt with this guy, but you are all saying what a great guy he is.  how would you know that?  or do you believe the attitude he has with people paying him money is the same attitude he has in the normal running of his life?

suicidal?  wrong.  we have had folks come on here and give bad reports before.  the outfitter has come on and given his side.  done deal.  and it has a lot more weight to it than a bunch of people coming on and defending someone they consider a friend.  almost seems set up.  like someone is getting paid.  at least, that's the way it is coming across to me.  being in a magazine does not give credibility.  but, since you brought it up, and I'm a life member with buckmasters, what issue was that in?  month and year?  can go thru and look up the write up about the operation.

"It's time for him to get over it and move on and stop sending nasty emails to IWS. The hunt is OVER"

best quote you have made in backing up my thought they you are either 1, the outfitter or 2, the outfitter is sending you here to defend him.  how else would you know that the guy is sending the outfitter emails?

 

TLC,
As I mentioned in my earlier post, I have hunted with Mr. Doty @ IWS for six seasons. The properties that I am familiar with have been located in the following counties: White, Saline, Hardin, Gallatin, Hamilton & Pope. There may be more, but those are the ones that I can confirm with certainty. I'm not from Illinois, so maybe there are more, but I know for sure he has had hunters on properties in all of those counties when I have hunted there.

Also, I can't remember a single time I have been on a hunt with this particular outfitter where he didn't spend a good portion of the evening before the first day of the hunt confirming that everyone's guns were sighted in properly while it was still light, and then assembling all of the hunters and reviewing all of the rules, regulations, guidelines, insurance forms and expectations for the upcoming hunt. Mr. Doty is a very "communicative" sort, with no shortage of words, and definitely leaves no stone unturned as far as what he expects from each of his hunters. Often times I have heard him repeat the guidelines for each hunt over and over, trying to make sure each hunter was comfortable with what was going to take place the next day.

In conjunction with that, I think it's important to note that he has a designated folder for each property that contains the following information: - Detailed directions from camp to each property with every road marked including exact mileage on each stretch of road - Aerial photo of each property showing the entire property, with each entry point and literally the entire path to each stand clearly marked, as well as the stand itself. I am not making this up, as I have seen & reviewed the large stack of folders containing all of this information.

The paths are then marked from the entry point to each stand location with bright eye tacs for entry & exit while dark, as well as orange tape for during the daylight hours. This has always been my experience while hunting @ IWS. You seem like a curious fellow who's willing to make some effort to investigate the truth, so I wanted to relay to you my own personal experience with Mr. Doty. Obviously I can't speak for anyone else, but the things I have mentioned above are what I have personally experienced and witnessed.

I want to also assure you that Bojack is not the outfitter, nor has he even talked personally with the outfitter. I am aware of who Bojack is, and he's a normal client just like me.

Because of my multiple hunts with Mr. Doty, I have contacted him regarding this hunter's frustrations, and have discussed it in detail with him. I want to state that Mr. Doty has done his best to react to this unfortunate situation in a professional way. He recognized that, because of things outside of his control, this was a particularly hard hunt. I can assure you that there was no one as disappointed as he. As always, he would have been more than willing to work something out with these hunters, if there had been any interest on their end. Obviously, that wasn't the case. This man stated that he wouldn't even return and hunt there if a hunt was offered for free.

I recall one particularly difficult hunt, where a first time hunter from Florida was in camp and saw very little deer activity over the course of three days of hard hunting. Mr. Doty circled back with him at the end of the hunt and worked out an arrangement for him to come back and hunt again, in an effort to help this hunter find success. Well, needless to say, that was in 2008, and that particular hunter is now a regular in camp and has harvested numerous bucks over the past number of years that have all been some of his very best to date. I know that this is an accurate account of what happened, because I have become friends with the hunter I"m referencing and have hunted with him quite a few times.

I sincerely feel badly for smonteleone, as I have been there, when you spend a large amount of money on a hunt, only to come home empty handed. There are few things that can be as frustrating and even maddening. However, I just wish he had talked this over with Mr. Doty and tried to come up with an equitable arrangement to try to fulfill his expectations on a future hunt. I know that any of his concerns would have been listened to and addressed as much as possible, and that Mr. Doty would have done his utmost to try to ensure a very different ending to this story. He has chosen to take a very different path than that one, and it is one that I think was not a very productive option. He has every right to do whatever he feels to do, including relaying how upset he is over what happened on this hunt. However, that's where it should have stopped. Rant & rave, cuss & swear, relay your horrific story in detail, embellish every normal mishap on a hunt to the nth degree, and list your credentials and tell everyone this was the worst hunt of your aged life (all of which he has been doing), but don't cross the unspoken line and into the combative territory of calling Mr. Doty and his outfitting business a Scam and a Fraud. That is a poor decision on his part. I have zero problem with him saying anything he wants to about his hunting experience, but I do think it is inappropriate to publicly label the outfitter and his business a fraud based on a few days of hunting in poor conditions.

Hopefully that all makes sense to you and sheds a little more light on how business is conducted @ IWS.

   

Smonteleone said the 70-yard wide strip of woods he was hunting, "held no big bucks." Well here are 2 bucks killed from that exact woods....the one where he got lost....The top one was shot in 2010, and the bottom one shot in 2011.

Nah....no big bucks in that woods....Smonteleone is an expert on that, remember?

 

 

 

           

 

Antler519,

Thanks for posting those pictures! Those are nice deer! Although, even if smonteleone and his "boys" had shot both of those deer, IWS would probably still be considered a Scam and Fraud! Talk about a tough crowd...

If I'm not mistaken, the tall tined 10 point was killed in the EXACT STAND that smonteleone was hunting in, and the massive buck was killed in the exact tree stand that he said no self respecting buck would dare approach because he'd be alerted to the "orange light bulb" in a tree stand 15 feet above the ground that was not "brushed" in or camouflaged! I actually hunted that stand in 2011 and, interestingly enough, I actually was able to put a safety harness around the tree. I'm not sure why he stated that wasn't possible. It definitely is possible, as I did it!

P.S. Thanks for the wake-up call last year! It's nice to know your fellow hunters are looking out for you!

now is the time for me to exit this discussion. There is nothing I can say that hasn't already been said. However, I ADAMANTLY disagree with the SCAM, FRAUD claim. IWS and Doug Doty are the complete opposite. They are as honest as they come and work hard at getting their clients a deer than any other outfitter i have hunted with. I just wish smonteleone did not chose to make it a personal attack on the man and his business. He has every right to express his displeasure with the outcome and expectation of his hunt but thats where it should have ended. I hope smonteleone moves on to bigger and better pastures and finds his dreaam hunt.

If its out there.

You know I was going to stay out of this one as I know nothing about the state .I only have one question some of you defending this guy .Why dose he specify that you have to shoot a 140 class buck or pay a $500.00 extra fee if you do not .Is that only for newbies or for all .As all of you have said he has never charge you the fee .Or as I have asked is that only for newbies .From what I can see he never told them they could take anything that is satisfactory to them ,without the extra $500.00 .The guy could have been satisfied with that .

Holly,
IWS has many different properties, and the outfitter in question has stated very clearly (to me at least) that there are certain, designated properties where the 140" minimum is maintained, with a $500 penalty for those who choose to ignore it.

On the other hand, I know of at least four different properties that he maintains where, for a whole variety of reasons, it isn't conducive to manage the herd in this fashion, so he doesn't enforce that standard on those properties, and allows hunters to hunt there who will be satisfied with a 125" class buck.

Also, that 140" minimum is a relatively new standard that he implemented in the very recent past, in an effort to continue to increase the quality of the deer herd for his clients.

I thought it was odd that the disgruntled hunter on this forum was "upset" that a few of the other hunters weren't "penalized" for shooting deer that were below the minimum. That alone raised a red flag for me. In the excitement of the moment, we all have shot deer that ended up being smaller than we had hoped for or anticipated when we pulled the trigger. For a fellow hunter to be upset that someone in that position received mercy instead of judgement is a little odd, to say the least. If it was a non-stop situation that would be one thing. But for a hunter to shoot a mid 130"s class deer on one of the properties, just a little below the minimum, and to not be penalized, is a good thing from my perspective, not something to be bashing the outfitter about.

I know that at least one of the bucks in question that didn't meet the "minimum" was shot on one of the properties I mentioned where the higher minimum isn't maintained.

Again, I have personally talked with this outfitter regarding this whole situation, and have gotten all of my information that I have posted on this forum "directly from the horses mouth".

Hopefully that answers your question.

Posted By Johnjne on 04 Dec 2012 11:25 AM
I would like to visit this alternate universe where hunters never get turned around in the woods, deer are dead on the ground by 7:30 every time out, and there is no lock down..

Are these posts for real???

I cannot speak for others, but as for myself I can honestly say that the last 2 years I did in fact enter the woods after 5am, set up in a predetermined area, spotted the buck I intended to take and then proceed to take said buck by 7:30 AM and was out of the woods  and loading said buck in the vehicle by 8:30 am.  The 3 years prior to that I was out of the woods by noon, but did not enter the woods until after 8 am.   Neither I nor anyone else in the group managed to get lost.   This is not to say that no one used 5 minutes to determine their bearings. Perhaps you consider pausing for a moment to scan your map as getting lost?  This alternate universe is called being prepared and taking time to scout and communicate with every member of the group days ahead of the trip and making sure everyone was clear as to where each and every other would be hunting.

Maybe some others are in areas with less deer or do not take the time to scout and plan out the hunt before hand, I do not know.  But I do know that I would never go out blind with no idea of the area or animals in the area.  As I stated before I am not rushing through the woods.  I am taking my time and noticing anything that could be a landmark.  Maybe some tree that was blown down and is leaning at an odd angle near the trail or an old fence line.  Have a cell phone?  Take a few pics as soon as the area looks unfamiliar, don't forget to take pics looking in the direction you will be traveling to come back.  Use some trail markers and snap them on the path you are walking.  Take a good compass and map ( study the map BEFORE you go ).  Take a GPS.  Still can't figure it out?  Take an orienteering class before you head out.  Do you bother to check prevailing wind currents the night before that are predicted for the next day? We do.  Do you follow strict scent and sound control? We do.  Do you go fishing?  Take that time to scout out the terrain.  Hell even google earth can help you get an idea of the area you will be in.  If the only time you spend outdoors is the actual day you plan on hunting no wonder you get lost. 

If I can manage it anyone can manage it.  And please stop insinuating that people are liars because they take the time and effort to have success and not get lost on the way.

Just to make things clear, and to sign off because this is getting off topic, getting lost in the woods really has nothing to do with this thread. Of course I don't get lost in the woods, but to say you have never gotten lost in your hunting career is just silly. And congrats on shooting deer and having your plans work out the way you planned...but sometimes things don't work out as planned and you end up sitting all day, that's just hunting.

You're exactly correct, nothing can pay off better than great scouting, preparation, and proper stand placement, which is exactly why I hunt with Illinois Whitetail Services LLC. Doug has become a great friend and maybe that's why some of these posts defend him so adamantly. He's a great guy and runs a great outfit...no reason to keep repeating specific examples why.

Again, im sorry the guy that started this post had a bad time and it wasn't what he expected, I just think all of the accusations/bashing was off base and out of line

After reading the responses in this thread I went back and read the original post again. I noticed this time that the he mentioned that he did pass on a buck he considered small. The poster was also upset about the actions of some local hunters in the vicintiy of where he and his sons were hunting, those actions may have been beyond the control of the outfitter. What I find interesting was his description of the food and accommodations, which seemed to be somewhat confirmed by the outfitters supporters with various comments. I would think at a $1000 a day it would not be unreasonable to expect some fairly nice accommodations and good meals. As a comparison I was thinking of a fishing trip I was on last month, for less than a $1000 a day I had a private cabin that was nicer than many hotels I have stayed, at the main lodge coffee was delivered to your room each morning, then you went to the mail lodge and ordered what you wanted for breakfast, for lunch we had soup that was heated by the guides along with a sandwich, there was an open bar for those that wished to have a cocktail before dinner. The dinners were unbelievable good and served with wine. I guess the bottom line, if you go on a hunt and have at least an opportunity then it is a good hunt, if you pass on that opportunity that is your choice, the elements beyond the outfitters control are just that beyond his control, but the accommodations and meals sounded very sub par for the amount of money tendered. I guess I don't consider this a "scam" but maybe somewhat pricey.

SteelC: when the first post showed up I read it and said to myself "they just got taken". Interesting to me that all the positive arguments are presented by "members with less than 10 posts?

SteelC,
Just a little side note for you to consider...the original post of the fella that "got taken" as you put it...was also his first post ever as well. Don't make illogical and uninformed statements without knowing all of the facts. I have killed eight bucks with this outfitter over the past six seasons. Noone got taken. It was a terrible hunt, with very slow deer activity, but that can happen anywhere on a hunt that lasts only one weekend. Be for real.

Also, the week before I had a close friend who bowhunted on property that this disgruntled fella's son hunted on while he was there, and my friend videoed a 160" 8 point just out of bow range. If you have too much spare time on your hands and don't have anything better to do, play solitaire or something of that sort, but don't enter into the fray and add fuel to the fire about something you are clueless about. I would suggest that you heed the footer at the bottom of your own post.

Just my suggestion anyway...

Hollywood,  I did not say anyone "got taken" that was someone else mentioning the fact that all of IWS backers were recent posters with very little if any posting history on the site except for this thread.  Your post "Don't make illogical and uniformed statements without knowing all the facts" shows that you do not follow your own orders/advice.

Also I mentioned that I have heard  people on both sides of the issue.  If you do not have anything better to do than insult or inflame or add fuel to the fire on a subject in which you are clueless please  take your own suggestion and play solitaire.

One of the main points is that for $1000 a DAY, the lodging and food were sort of the no where near what they should have been quality.  Some consider this a scam, some a ripoff and others find this to be just fine and dandy.

Now that it has been brought to my attention that most of the IWS fanboys are of the just joined or have only a few posts and all of the posts are in this thread type I am getting the idea that IWS might very well be a scam and the scammers might very well be the IWS supporters trying to protect their scam $ coming in.  Way to kill your cash cow.

PS Did I mention that you fanboys seem to know way too much info about a particular hunt without being there?

SteelCandy,

You're right, and I stand corrected. My last post was intended as a response to Ternera1. Please accept my apology for incorrectly addressing you. I don't ever want to carelessly throw out incorrect posts, as I see many of the "regular" posters on the NAHC forum have a bad habit of doing, thus my "Solitaire" comment.

As a new poster, most of what I have read from the regulars with literally hundreds and thousands of posts, appears to be a bunch of folks with too much time on their hands, giving their opinions on things they clearly have no idea what they're even talking about. Hey, it's a free country and all, and everyone can do whatever they feel like doing, but it comes across as ridiculous and unproductive from an outside perspective. In fact, many of the posts I have read come across as petty and childish. I'm just being honest.

You correcting my error and everything else in your last post was fine, until you also ventured into speculative territory, about a situation which you know very little about. If you had carefully read the majority of the posts regarding the responses to this hunt, you would know that there was at least one hunter who said he actually WAS on the same hunt as this disgruntled gentleman who started this whole thing out by calling a legitimate outfitter a scam. That hunter addressed the angry hunter directly, refuting many of his claims.

I also mentioned in my post, that as a responsible hunter, I made sure that I discussed this hunt with the outfitter to make sure I got accurate information before responding. A number of other hunters who have had very different types of experiences with this outfitter also alluded to the fact that they had contacted him as well, to see what in the world had gone wrong for this client on this particular hunt. This was so different than everything I have ever experienced or heard about this outfitter, that I wanted to hear what could have possibly gone so badly that this hunter would be so angry and upset.

I will say that, armed with about 1% of the overall picture, you're free to speculate that this is a big conspiracy and that we're all intent on covering up a great, big, giant scam, from which we're all profiting. Along with many of the comments that many of the regulars make on this forum, that is inaccurate and makes professional people like me shy away from being involved with this forum. I wouldn't want to waste my time bantering back and forth with folks who don't seem to be legitimately interested in the truth, but rather interested in continually "stirring the pot", and creating intrigue and deceit where none really exists. Many of the regulars on this post have done very little other than throw out random, verbal scud missiles with no particular objective or target. I have personally answered several of these members, and, of course, they never responded after I thoroughly answered their questions with the facts that I had gotten straight from Mr. Doty @ IWS.

Also, I'm not a "fanboy", but rather an experienced, legitimate hunter who has had many productive hunts with this outfitter, which is why I got involved with this whole thing in the first place. If you need to speak condescending to fellow hunters who are trying to add constructive input to this whole discussion, have at it. That diminishes you, not them.

I want to say again, that I am really disappointed for the hunter who started this whole discussion. He obviously paid a lot of money for this hunt, and due to all sorts of circumstances outside of everyone's control, he had a bummer of a hunt, to put it mildly. I know how upsetting that can be, but as I stated before, I know he could have handled this in a more constructive way other than labeling a legitimate outfitter, with a legitimate business, a scam. He can even consider it to be kind of a rip-off, from his perspective, but to be a scam, implies that the outfitter is a spurious fellow, intent on taking advantage of other hunters, for personal gain. As I have stated on this forum (add nauseum), after 48 days of hunting with this outfitter, I can personally, definitively say, that just simply isn't true.

This is a situation where a hunter didn't do proper homework to ensure that he was heading to an outfitting experience that matched his expectations, coupled with natural hunting conditions that further added to his frustration and disappointment. It all makes perfect sense as to why he's so upset, and I feel for the guy. I just wish he had used even a little of the experiences from his 68 years of life, to handle this volatile situation in a reasonable fashion.

Again, please accept my apology for incorrectly addressing you. That was careless on my part, and detracts from what I'm really trying to say.

Hollywood: I'm not here to defend anyone. I just remember..."when I read the first post... he just got taken".
If you understood those words as referring to a "scam", your interpretation was wrong. The original poster used those words not me. If someone thinks they were ripped-off, same applies.

Just as a joke(you are a hell of a fast reader) but, you said.... " As a new poster, most of what I have read from the regulars with literally hundreds and thousands of posts, appears to be a bunch of folks with too much time on their hands, giving their opinions on things they clearly have no idea what they're even talking about."

On a last note: I honestly compliment you on your good use of grammar and punctuation. I am very impressed with  your elocuent use of the language. And feel free to correct me if I made any grammatical or orthografical errors.

Ternera1,

Thanks for taking the time to clarify your position. To you also, I say, if I have misinterpreted or misrepresented you, my sincere apology.

Also, while I appreciate your compliment of my eloquent use of language, please know that I would never correct your or anyone else's use of language on this forum or any other one for that matter. My purpose for entering the fray was assuredly not to assess anyone's grammar or orthography.

By the way, for the record, I do like the footer at the bottom of your post! It's hilarious, and worst of all, it's true!! I hate to see where the next four years of this "idiocracy" is going to leave us! We need more patriots like you.

Hollywood,
I am sorry if you feel like I was the instigating poster when in fact I was pointing out that I had in fact been blamed for something I had not said nor type. You are the poster that made statements "play solitaire or something of that sort, but don't enter into the fray and add fuel to the fire about something you are clueless about." That in the views of some was a direct attack and was not needed. If you wish to claim the high road and say you are a professional that shies away from being involved with the forum then please act professional and not attack others that were originally neutral on this subject until "your side" attacked them.

I was not trying to be condescending towards anyone. I stated I have heard from 2 hunters that were unsatisfied with the lodging and meals as well as others that were fine with it. I mentioned asking more questions. It was not until you directly attacked me that I said I was said I was getting the idea that the possibility of less than 100% honest representation of the facilities was more and more likely ( not using the same words ).

You seem, by your posts, to be acting superior to all of us dumb hunters that have nothing to do all day but piss and moan about subjects about which we have no clues.
You state you have knowledge of what I know about this subject in general, that could be seen as an overreach or just being smug. As I stated before I have heard from another hunter that was not satisfied with IWS lodging and meals.

If you ever noticed I state when something is my opinion with such qualifiers as IMO, IMHO, I think, etc.

On a positive note, I am glad you and some of the others have had positive experiences with IWS.
I do hope we can leave all of this in the past and forget all such unfriendliness in the future.

SteelCandy,

I am now well aware that you weren't the instigating poster, and that is why I sent you a personalized post, apologizing for incorrectly calling you out. Again, if my post came across as unprofessional or as a needless attack, I also apologize for that. There is no need to needlessly insult one another at any time and for any reason.

I do disagree with you that you weren't being condescending by calling those of us who took the time to actually dig deeper regarding the original post and investigate exactly what went down here, "fanboys". However, it's not a big deal, and after going back and reviewing all of your posts regarding this topic, I do believe you were pretty much neutral overall and I don't perceive that your intent was to add unnecessary fuel to the fire.

Also, I definitely wasn't intending to act superior to all of the "dumb hunters", of which I am proudly a part. If seeking to be articulate and factual regarding what I write is acting superior, then I'm guilty as charged. However, if you read the quick, initial responses from the "regulars" on this post, you will see that throughout this whole thread they have often thrown out their opinions without doing any reasonable research at all. In fact, many of the statements they made were answered by other posts, or on the outfitter's website. With even a little bit of detailed analysis of the situation, they could have answered many of their own questions, and realized that many of their statements were inaccurate. It is that type of folly that I was bothered by, and was directly combating and addressing.

I did notice that you used the qualifiers that you mentioned, and I commend you for that. That type of dialogue is refreshing.

Thank you for your positive response regarding my many, excellent experiences with Mr. Doty and IWS. I, too, trust that we can all leave this in the past and forget all such unfriendliness in the future. That is always my intent. However, in any arena of my life, if someone carelessly and inaccurately seeks to besmirch a person or an organization that I know to be honest and legitimate, I will readily throw my hat into the ring and come to their defense. I despise injustice and public slander, with the intent to harm people who are doing their best to make an honest living, while providing countless others with wonderful, lifelong memories. As I have stated several times, I sincerely feel badly for this hunters and his boys, but I also strongly believe that he has handled this whole situation in a very poor manner, and started an unnecessary firestorm. If he would have conducted himself in a different fashion, I am more than confident that this could have had a very different ending.

Thanks again for your posts and your valuable input throughout this conversation.

I hope you have a very blessed holiday season...

sorry to hear about all the bad things about hiring an outfitter,i have never personally done it but thats mainly because it is hard these days to know who is legit and who is not.i read all the good and the bad in this conversation and i dont know if i will ever be able to find a good outfitter that isnt a friend or friend of a friend.once you lay down what can be a large sum of money you are going to always be rolling the dice unless you truly know who you are dealing with.as for asking all the questions well you can ask all you want wether you get the truth or not is an entirely differant story.

nice to see some harmony. Hollywood every post is well said , nice job.

happy Holidays and be safe

Bojack,

Thanks for your kind words. I'm hoping to meet you in person at camp in 2013. Doug has told me great things about you. I've met the majority of the group that you hunt with, and they are second to none. I hunted with them in 2011, and we all had an incredible time, and success was abundant. A number of the bucks taken on that hunt were excellent deer in every way.

Thanks again, and I'm glad we can all end this on a positive note...